+P's in a Model 10 snubbie

[HiCap]

I have just purchased 2" model 10. I don't have it yet, so I don't have the serial number and don't therefore have the date of manufacture. Are all model 10's capable of handling a +P .38's, or is there a cut off date that I should be aware of?

HiCap

 

[HiCap]

I have just purchased 2" model 10. I don't have it yet, so I don't have the serial number and don't therefore have the date of manufacture. Are all model 10's capable of handling a +P .38's, or is there a cut off date that I should be aware of?

HiCap

 

[bmcgilvray]

If it is marked as a Model 10 it is said to be suitable for use with +P. Practically speaking, it'll handle such ammunition easily.

 

[HiCap]

Thanks.

 

[Andy Taylor]

As per S&W any model marked K frame .38 is fine with +P.
One forum member did a longevity test on a non-model marked steel K frame with +P with no ill effects. Another did a similar test on a model marked alloy k frame (M12) also with no ill effect.

 

[Texas Star]

And the USAF cited constant rebuilding of their M-15 .38's as a reason why they wanted to adopt a 9mm pistol.

The .38's weren't standing up well to a diet of Plus P ammo, and the standard speed loads delivered inadquate lethality in Vietnam.

 

[photoman]

The USAF used +P ammo?

I dare say most people don't shoot anywhere near enough rounds to wear out or damage a K frame.

 

[Erich]

I managed a gun store right when every cop in the universe was trading in his Model 19 or 66 for a crunchenticker - and we handled several police departments' trade-in business. One of these was the largest department in the state. I've seen a few used K-frames.

It seemed to me that the clear cause of K-frame wear was sloppy handling and (rarely) sloppy cleaning. Slam a cylinder shut like that idiot you see on the TV screen, and you'll mess up your S&W. The thought that merely shooting +P ammo (which is really pretty mild stuff, amigos) through a model-numbered K-38 would damage it strikes me as preposterous.

I'm going to email a link to this thread to my friend Sam, who is a gunsmith and who carried and used the M15 extensively in the Air Force. Perhaps he might have a few words on the subject.

 

[Pedersoli]

Here is the story of +P 38 special in the Air Force as I remember it. There have been other threads on the forum which have seen some of this information.

1. M-1943 Ball was the standard stock listed carry ammunition for Air Police and others from post WW2 into the mid 1970s. It was a 130 grain bullet going about 750fps. This was not the spicy stuff you see loaded commercially now with the 130 FMJ. I think it was developed for the aluminum frame and cylinder models first seen in the 1950s. I believe the Navy used this ammo also in addition to 38 tracer, and I am not sure what the Army did.

2. In the beginning (1947) the new USAF used the M-2 30 caliber carbine and the M-1911A1. This changed in the late 1950s early 1960s when Curtis LeMay took over as Chief of Staff, he liked revolvers. The main complaint from the field being the aircrews had a hell of a time qualifying with the M-1911A1. It was heavy, the sights sucked and it had that single action semi-auto safety/training issue that came up again the the 1970s part of the push for a double action semi-auto. As some of you may recall, the USAF was the first service to jump on the AR-15 wagon in order to dump the M-1 Carbine.

3. We qualified with mostly wadcutter ammuntition, the standard course of fire being 50 rounds. There was an extra course of fire after the standard run for Air Police/Combat shooters. Range guns were fired a lot and cleaned after shooting by folks who for the most part had little patience with solvents and brushes.

4. At some time around 1970 or so, some Navy guy doing some shooting off the end of a ship somewhere managed to fire 5 rounds of the M-1943 ball from his revolver with none exiting the barrel. I saw pictures of this. The first round made it to the end and poked its little nose out, the next ones went bang and lined up behind it. Number 5 lodged partway in the forcing cone locking up the cylinder rotation. So we had some old ammo around not going bang too well, and the lethality issues from RVN. Can you imagine being on a B-52 downed somewhere in Alaska with a 38 and that ammunition? The joke in survival school was it's only practical use was suicide.

5. The solution found for the issue after some testing was the PGU-12 round which was the same bullet seated deeper with an extra grain of powder. We now had a +P load. I want to say it bumped the 130 grain FMJ up into the 900FPS level out of a 4" barrel. It became the new carry and qualification ammunition after stocks of the old stuff and wadcutter was fired off.

6. Old range guns shot thousands of times with target loads now getting a diet of +P. What I heard was they were seeing parts breakage and timing issues. This helped set the stage for what developed later with the Joint Service Small Arms Program (JSSAP) and the request for proposal that went out for a 9mm handgun for DOD. Revolvers were breaking down and the 45s were on their second or third re-build; time for new stuff.

Sorry this took so long. I invite corrections and comments. I was a player from 1968 to 1991 with some breaks here and there.

 

[bmcgilvray]

HiCap, the moral of the story is that your K-Frame Smith & Wesson revolver will hold up to shooting +P ammunition longer than your wallet will hold out in purchasing the stuff.

 

[Erich]

Great post, Pedersoli. I recall enjoying your info the last time this issue came up as well, and I'm grateful that you took the time to post it again.

 

[Pedersoli]

Thank you Erich for the kind words. I would be interested in what your gunsmith friend has to say.

My great grandfather used to say that an engine had a fixed number of revolutions, perhaps the same for a revolver? Maybe the issue of wear is a combination of what you shoot, how you maintain the device, and how many times you dry fire? The Services were prone to using a firearm until failure of a part then replacing the part.

As to the original question, I would pay closer attention to preventive maintenance on a +P diet. Nothing lasts forever and damage or wear is a gradual thing that sneaks up on the best of us.

 

[charles isaac]

I hammer Federal Hydro Shok 147gr +P+ out of a circa 1976, run of the mill hog handled heavy barreled 10-5. No problems whatsoever. (I bought the thing for the grips, but it quickly became my favorite shooter/carry gun. Go figure.)

I believe constant loading and unloading with the Hollywierd wrist flick cylinder slam is most likely what did the most damage to the guns we see that are fired little and damaged.

 

[BugEater]

I purchased a new 2" model 64 (stainless version of the model 10) back in '01. The barrel is not marked +P. However, the owner's manual states that any revolver marked with a model number inside the yoke is capable of +P ammunition. +P+ is not recommended. Me being extra cautious, I wrote an e-mail to S&W inquiring about +P ammo. Their reply was that Yes, it was approved for +P.

 

[JWM]

I was USAF SP/LE enlisted from 1979-83; later I was DOD Police at Otis ANGB, MA from 1983-89. In both jobs the issued handgun was the four-inch Model 15 with PGU ammo. One boring day at Otis, I was on patrol in the northern section of the base (Camp Edwards really) and decided to swing by one of the Army Guard ranges for some plinking. There was a recently towed auto (junk car) in pristine condition awaiting some ventilation during upcoming machine gun training. I decided to do some testing of a few PGU rounds. I put three quick rounds of .38 PGU directly through the front windshield at a 90% angle at a distance of about 20 feet. I'm happy to report that all 3 rds penetrated thru the glass and ended up somewhere in the back seat. I was satisfied.

 

[RichCapeCod]

Originally posted by Photoman44:
The USAF used +P ammo?

I dare say most people don't shoot anywhere near enough rounds to wear out or damage a K frame.

Photoman44, I actually managed to do just that! At the time I was a sergeant assigned to the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section (ran the Heavy Weapons Section, FI School, Research and Testing and whatever else nobody wanted to deal with…). My model 10's spitting of lead began to get to me. Brought it in to the gunsmith shop. The guys (Ron K or Jerry C probably) changed the hand, did some other stuff, kept running a range rod through the barrel and they still couldn't get it right (and those guys KNEW the S&W 10). Anyway, someone finally looked at the recoil plate (the flat surface on the frame near the rear of the cylinder), found the cylinder pin hole had been worn egged shaped (it's supposed to be round).

Anyway, as luck would have it a S&W rep was at the range that day. He took my handgun back with him and a couple of weeks later I got it back. At Springfield they drilled out the worn out hole, putting in a press fit replacement. Also had to replace the barrel and cylinder (bulged both – I was an avid handloader and liked to experiment…).

Anyway, can't argue with you in regard it's tough to wear out a K-frame. But it can be done! Oh, and how many rounds had gone through the gun by the time it went in for repair? Can't say for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a six figure number by then. I mean, give a guy unlimited amounts of ammo and a range to work at each day and what else would you expect? Not to mention the fact that I lived on 10 acres in Orange County and had my own range there.


Best,

Rich

 

[photoman]

Well...I did say ~most~ people Rich. Maybe I should've said most ~normal~ people.

Thanks for the reply.

p.s. Currently reading Kirchner's book on Cirillo. Excellent read!

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by HiCap:
I have just purchased 2" model 10. I don't have it yet, so I don't have the serial number and don't therefore have the date of manufacture. Are all model 10's capable of handling a +P .38's, or is there a cut off date that I should be aware of?

HiCap

S&W says use of Plus-P is OK in any K frame having a numerical model number marked in the crane, which, for all practical purposes, means anything made since about 1958, I think. So, you should be ok. In any event, you will use regular ammo for almost all shooting and Plus-P for occasional practice and carry, so it is nothing to worry about.