PSA: Always check your factory ammo!

[Dubbed743]

Recently purchased a few boxes of Remington Ultimate Defense 38 SPL +P 125 gr BJHP for defense load, as well as Fiocchi 125 gr SJSP 38 SPL for practice load. Went to the range last night and fired off a few cylinders of the Fiocchi - Accuracy out of my GP100 was noticabley worse than some Aguila I had laying around. Thought to myself "Weird. Guess i'll try the Remington" so I opened up the Ultimate Defense and the COAL was nearly .357 length! I could understand if this was Wolf or something, but at nearly $1.25 a round, this is unaccpeptable.

When I got home, I decided to diassemble the Remington loads, and decap the Fiocchi brass before throwing it in the tumbler - First piece of Fiocchi brass snapps my decapping rod in 2! Shine a flashlight in the Fiocchi brass, and notice the flash hole is WAY off center (Had to use a punch to decap for the picture )

All of this two days after I discover my case of Fiocchi .223 55 gr, has the exact same issues (shot like ****, broke a decap pin, flash hole WAY off center). Mind you that all of this ammo was purchased new in factory sealed boxes from several different reuputable online retailers....

So far I have learned two very valuable lessons from this experience: 1. Always check factory ammo, and 2. Don't buy Fiocci.

 

[Bozz10mm]

Well, that's good to know now that I have 650 rounds of Fiocchi .223 55gr on hand. I haven't fired any of it yet, so I guess I need to take my Mini-14 to the range and check it out.

I haven't seen many negative reviews for Fiocchi ammo. In fact, I have fired hundreds of rounds of Fiocchi in 9mm and 45 ACP with no problems. It has always been reliable, accurate, and fairly clean burning.

 

[brucev]

When using any ammunition, factory or handloads, it is always wise to pay attention to what you are loading into your firearm. Though extremely uncommon, sometimes mistakes are at a factory and sometimes mistakes are make by the individual handling the firearm.

With extreme respect, you should contact Fiocchi w/ your concerns about the brass. Very likely they will want to know and have the opportunity to respond. I have fired a lot of Fiocchi ammo, both rifle and pistol. It has always been excellent. Never noted any problems with the brass.

As to the concern w/ the Remington ammunition, again, you need to contact the manufacturer. They need to know what you found and have the opportunity to examine the round(s) and make a response. Disassembling the questionable rounds was most certainly not a wise decision. It completely precludes any possibility that you would be able to obtain replacement ammunition from Remington, etc.

A few weeks ago I experienced a cash head failure while shooting some Winchester .22 LR 333 ammunition. Winchester paid to have the questionable ammunition returned and then shipped replacement ammunition to my address. They did not care about when or where the ammunition had been purchased. They were very cooperative.

Given the otherwise excellent past experience with Winchester ammunition, writing off all Winchester ammunition as suspect and not to be used would be most unwise. Over the years I've seen occasional bad rounds of ammunition, i.e., poor case crimp, bullet not seated to a normal COL, a squib round in factory loaded Remington .38 Special LRN ammunition, primer pockets that were after the first firing a little loose (Federal .308 Gold Medal Match). These were anomalies. To have written all these manufacturers and their products off would have been as illogical as to refuse to buy shotgun shells produced by a certain individual manufacturer simply because on a single occasion a single shotgun shell failed to chamber in a single Remington 870 pump shotgun.

The flash hole is punched in brass. Only occasionally is it drilled. A perfectly centered flash hole is of course desirable for reloaders, but it is otherwise irrelevant. For instance, when ammunition is berdan primed, the use of two smaller flash holes is no impediment to consistent ignition, etc.

 

[Dubbed743]

Brucev,

I would tend to agree with you regarding having a bit of lieniency with ammo manufactureres, however when the first two boxes of Fiocchi ammunition that I purchase in different calibers both exhibit accuracy that is statistically sub-par out of multiple weapons (Model 10 + GP100 & Mini-14 Target + Troy Ar-15) with multiple shooters (myself & father) compared to other low-cost ammunition (Aguila, PMC) AND the brass is not reloadable, that is enough to make me never purchase another Fiocchi product again. As always, YMMV.

I understand what you are saying about not writing off Winchester, and as I have had good experiences with Remington ammunition in the past, I will likely continue to purchase their ammunition.

I do however wholeheartedly disagree that I "need to contact the manufacturer" for either case. It is not my responsibility to perform quality control for either manufacturer, and it has been my personal experience that the more "your product is defective" calls a company gets, the LESS effort/$ they will put into QC - It is much more profitable to sell at a lower price point than to repair a bad reputation.

As for disassembling the Remington rounds being "not a wise decision", It's much easier for me to simply reuse the primed brass + bullet than mess around with sending it back. Do I lose a few cents on powder? Yes. Is it easier than the alternative? Absolutely.

I'm new here and I have no desire to start off with on the wrong foot with anyone, and I'm glad that we both can agree that it is important for everyone to pay attention to what they are loading into their gun.

 

[Arik]

It's not your responsibility to contact them but it's also impossible to catch any and all defects. A bad part could have caused that or a employee not paying attention. We only hear of the problem when it leaves the factory. We never hear of how much were caught. And if it's easier to sell for less than it is to repair a bad rep then all ammo should be practically free. You say you have had good experience with Remington but I've seen countless posts of Remington's mistakes. Bullets seated too deep, brass deformed, % of box having wrong ammo.....Some 9mm in a box of 40. Or some 40 in a box of 45.

This HAPPENS WITH EVERYONE!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

 

[Dubbed743]

So upon further research I found the following picture that shows the 38 Golden Saber being nearly as long as the 357 as I posted above:
Remington Golden Saber .38 Spec 125 Grain Bjhp 25 Rounds - 514936, .40 S&W Ammo at Sportsman's Guide

Doing some measuring I found the average COAL to be 1.545 which is indeed (just barley) within the SAAMI spec of 1.550 max OAL. What caught me off guard initially was that these would NOT fully fit in the cylinder of my old model 10 while at the range. The more I thought about it the more this didn't make sense to me, as the it is my understanding that the reason a .357 will not fit in a .38 cylinder is due to brass length and COAL really makes no difference...

Long story short, I just tried loading the Remington GS again, and sure enough it went in the cylinder just fine . My only thought is that some combination of cylinder carbon fouling, hot cylinder, massive taper crimp, long exposed bearing surface, and perhaps the cylinder being on the short side of acceptable tolerances prevented me from fully chambering these at the range. Just one of those things I guess.

 

[moxie]

There is nothing wrong with the Remington! That ammo and it's twin Golden Saber have always been rather long. They shoot great and are IMO the best 125 gr. +P ammo available.

Don't know about the Fiocchi.

 

[brucev]

Re: contacting, etc.

First of all, welcome to this forum. Here are a host of wonderful people with a level of expertise that is wide ranging and extremely competent.

From time to time, there will be problems with any product, including even ammo from the very best manufacturers. Contacting a manufacturer with a product issue in no way at all constitutes having to accept responsibility for quality control. It is simply the appropriate action of a reasonable man. Otherwise unwarranted assumption regarding a manufacturer based on isolated individual experience is insufficient to sustain a case for a full-blown indictment of a manufacturer or its products.

In this case you have what is in your estimate a sub-quality product. Contacting the manufacturer allows them to make an adjustment and bear the costs of a otherwise unusable product. Otherwise, you are left to bear that cost. It makes no sense to absorb the cost of their possible failure in quality control. Of course it’s your money. If you prefer to salvage the lot of ammunition for components, that is your choice.

If one only wishes to bash a manufacturer, that is your privilege. There are those who do the same thing with regard to Wolf, Federal, Remington, Winchester, Taurus, Glock, S&W, Colt and other manufacturers.

 

[s&wbest]

I was at the range the other day and the shooter next to me showed me two cci blazer aluminum 38 special cartridges that had the bullet seated a quarter inch further out of the case than other rounds. His revolver cylinder would not advance and it scratched the rear wall of his revolver. I really appreciated him pointing this out because i had just purchased 2 boxes of this same ammo. I will be checking bullet seating from now on in my factory ammunition.

 

[kaaskop49]

attn s&w best

Great post, thank you! And especially check those rounds you load into your carry gun for defense purposes. Not just the bullet, but the casing itself. I once found a burr on the rim where it headspaced on the cylinder. Had the SHTF, the case rim would have jammed against the recoil shield and tied up the gun.

 

[JayFramer]

There is nothing wrong with the Remington! That ammo and it's twin Golden Saber have always been rather long. They shoot great and are IMO the best 125 gr. +P ammo available.

Don't know about the Fiocchi.

This is correct.

The Golden Saber .38 special 125 grain +P load is quite long. I was surprised when I first took them out of the box. This load performs beautifully out of 1 7/8" J-frame barrels. In the FBI testing protocol, expect 13-14" penetrations and expansion of just over .60", making this one of the top performers for snub nose .38 specials.

On a side note, anyone know there difference between the new "Ultimate Defense" and the Golden Saber loads in .38 special 125 grain +P? They look pretty much identical except the Golden Sabers come in a 25 round box vs the 20 for the Ultimate Defense.

 

[chief38]

AND.............. aside from just a visual inspection, I always Chronograph a new lot of ammo before using it for SD. If you look at some of my previous posts you will see the variations I have recorded.