Psychology, the internet and trigger pull?

[leejack]

This is just intended to be food for thought, nothing more:

In the "good old days", many of us grew up on double action (DA) revolvers, long before the invention of the internet. My personal favorite was (and still is) the S&W Model 10. We were taught how to point and shoot, manage trigger pull, breathing etc... When we missed the target, it was our fault, not the guns. We never said "if this thing had an easier trigger, I would have hit it". That never crossed our minds. We just had fun shooting! Keep in mind that many of the old school revolvers had a DA trigger pull that was heavier than the sigma's.

Now, fast forward to modern times; Al Gore and his amazing invention called the internet:

Many new shooters today are conditioned to think that a light trigger equals a good gun, and a heavy trigger equals a bad gun. When they start doing their homework, this is instilled in their brain from day 1.

Here are some examples we see in forum after forum:

My gun was advertized to have a 4.5 lb pull. It has a 5.5 pull, so I'm sending it back.

As soon as I get mine, I'm sending it to a gunsmith for a trigger job.

Lighten up the trigger by 2 lbs and your group will go from 4" to 2.5".

My gun pulls at 6 lbs, it's way better than yours.

I'm getting rid of these factory springs, can you recommend a good after market set? etc. etc. etc. The list goes on.

It seems to me that we now blame the gun when we don't hit the bullseye. I just don't recall hearing that in the old days. If we missed, it was on us!

Perhaps times have changed and I just haven't kept up; I don't know.

Now, on to the sigma:

When I first started doing my homework on this gun, I too fell into the internet trap. My mind was conditioned to think that the aweful trigger was going to be hard to pull. I might not be able to shoot well because of the gun. Then I read a post that snapped me out of the internet mindset, and I'm glad I did.

My sigma had none of that "grit" that so many people spoke of. I think the first guy who used that word on the internet, really started something that would be repeated many times. The pull (although long) was smooth, and for me, easy. This I'm sure is partly due to my many years of shooting the Model 10.

Being a fan of the single action Rugers as well, I know I need to train and practice with each and every gun I shoot. Adjusting to different triggers can be a challenge, but it can be done.

The bottom line for me is to get back to my roots. Learing to shoot the way I was taught. I'm working very hard to shoot my sigma well. I am getting better with each outing. When I miss, it's me!

This gun (in a crazy way) is almost like having a Model 10 with 16 round capacity that can launch the shots very fast if need be. Like any gun that I have owned, I know that I need to practice, practice, practice to be good.

I really enjoy shooting mine, hope you do too!

Lee

 

[Backon4]

When I bought mine way back in 98, I was told it was a great gun. I was also told that for the money it was the best gun around. No one complained about the trigger and complained even less about the price, $249-$279. I got mine out the door for $180 thanks to Jumbo sports going out of business. I too shot low when I got it, however after a couple of days of instruction and a lot of practice I was shooting where I aimed.

The current mentality about everything now can all be traced to the instant gratification mentality of 95% of the population now. They were brought up to believe everyone's a winner and anyone can do anything. No losers in little league, how is that possible. Partial credit on Math and Spelling? Hate to tell you but it's right or it's wrong. All of this has led people to believe nothing is ever their fault and if they can't do something it's not their fault it's their equipment.
I played competitive paintball for about 15 years and it never amazed me the amount of money people were willing to dump on equipment, thinking it would actually make them better. The would spend up to $2000 on a setup and if they still weren't better they would move on to another brand and then bash what they previously had.
Can better equipment actually make you better? In some instances yes. Does it actually mean you have done anything to improve your skill? No.
Just because a lighter trigger allows you to hit center mass easier doesn't make you a better shooter. Because when TSHTF chances are you won't have the necessary trigger control to overcome the adrenaline and you are going to miss what you are aiming at.
Nothing will replace proper training and skill.
Same in paintball, all modern electro's will allow you to shoot the maximum balls per second rate. But shooting fast doesn't make you a better player. People still need to practice basic skills and do shooting drills. It always amazed me how many people couldn't shoot off hand or shoot on the run (accurately).
I was told many years ago you train the way you shoot because when you hate to you will shoot how you trained. I often practice from a drop draw and shoot no sights so that I know the 1 time I have to I will hit what I point at.

Learn to shoot by learning basic techniques. Practice the way you can imagine yourself having to be in. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you have your eye and weapon on what you are going to shoot (this is a lot harder than it sounds) Be careful not to shoot yourself or the ground. And every now and then (even if you don't compete) practice shooting on the move and from behind cover.
These skills could be the difference between life and death and I choose life.

 

[Quigar57]

I'm 25 and I'm often lumped in with my peers as impatient and severly lacking common sense. I like to think I am the exception, I'm an only child and have spent more time around adults as a kid than most. I think because of that I tend to have picked up some wisdom that so other people my age may not have.

I got my Sigma in December and was to very accurate with it at all. The only handgun I had a lot of experience with prior to it was a Hi-Point 9mm. I have been shooting with my father for almost 20 years and he has instilled in me the mantra that guns are accurate people are not. So I knew that my poor accuracy with my Sigma was on me and not the gun. About a month ago I bought a Sig Sauer Mosquito, a .22, so that I could practice more and spend less money. I have been trying to get to the range at least once a week and usually put at least 500 rounds through the Mosquito then at least 50 rounds through my Taurus 9mm and my Sigma. I have noticed that the groups on all of my guns have been shrinking an effect that can only be attributed to practice and some good knowledge that I have picked up on forums like this.

 

[OKFC05]

Well, it's true if the gun is heavy enough, the target is big and close enough and the trigger is light enough, yanking the trigger will get the job done. Poor substitute for learning proper trigger control, IMHO.

The toughest students I get are the ones that have been yanking the trigger for years, and if the shot misses, it's the gun's fault. I recently had one of those in a class of four, and just let him shoot away while I worked with his wife, a beginner. Soon his wife was outshooting him, and to his credit, he finally asked "Could you show me what you showed her?" Got to get their attention first.........

 

[CF2]

I never knew that my Sigma was considered to have a "heavy trigger" pull lol. Anyways, IMO that whole issue is rooted in the "softness" of contemporary society. How come none of those critics mention strengthening the fingers? Oh ya must be it's too "hard" and may work up a sweat.

Better get a different gun then!!

 

[JAREDSHS]

This is just intended to be food for thought, nothing more:

In the "good old days", many of us grew up on double action (DA) revolvers, long before the invention of the internet. My personal favorite was (and still is) the S&W Model 10. We were taught how to point and shoot, manage trigger pull, breathing etc... When we missed the target, it was our fault, not the guns. We never said "if this thing had an easier trigger, I would have hit it". That never crossed our minds. We just had fun shooting! Keep in mind that many of the old school revolvers had a DA trigger pull that was heavier than the sigma's.

Now, fast forward to modern times; Al Gore and his amazing invention called the internet:

Many new shooters today are conditioned to think that a light trigger equals a good gun, and a heavy trigger equals a bad gun. When they start doing their homework, this is instilled in their brain from day 1.

Here are some examples we see in forum after forum:

My gun was advertized to have a 4.5 lb pull. It has a 5.5 pull, so I'm sending it back.

As soon as I get mine, I'm sending it to a gunsmith for a trigger job.

Lighten up the trigger by 2 lbs and your group will go from 4" to 2.5".

My gun pulls at 6 lbs, it's way better than yours.

I'm getting rid of these factory springs, can you recommend a good after market set? etc. etc. etc. The list goes on.

It seems to me that we now blame the gun when we don't hit the bullseye. I just don't recall hearing that in the old days. If we missed, it was on us!

Perhaps times have changed and I just haven't kept up; I don't know.

Now, on to the sigma:

When I first started doing my homework on this gun, I too fell into the internet trap. My mind was conditioned to think that the aweful trigger was going to be hard to pull. I might not be able to shoot well because of the gun. Then I read a post that snapped me out of the internet mindset, and I'm glad I did.

My sigma had none of that "grit" that so many people spoke of. I think the first guy who used that word on the internet, really started something that would be repeated many times. The pull (although long) was smooth, and for me, easy. This I'm sure is partly due to my many years of shooting the Model 10.

Being a fan of the single action Rugers as well, I know I need to train and practice with each and every gun I shoot. Adjusting to different triggers can be a challenge, but it can be done.

The bottom line for me is to get back to my roots. Learing to shoot the way I was taught. I'm working very hard to shoot my sigma well. I am getting better with each outing. When I miss, it's me!

This gun (in a crazy way) is almost like having a Model 10 with 16 round capacity that can launch the shots very fast if need be. Like any gun that I have owned, I know that I need to practice, practice, practice to be good



I really enjoy shooting mine, hope you do too!





Lee

Lee you have very eloquently expressed what I tryed to say in another
post somewhere. You are absolutely right and I agree.

 

[MitchellB]

Well said. I'm really glad my Sigma has a long heavy trigger pull like a double action revolver because it does what I bought it to do. I wanted a pistol that the only thing I had to worry about was pulling the trigger if I was involved in a tense and dangerous situation. That trigger pull has got to be deliberate. There is not much of a chance of it going off unless I mean to pull the trigger.
However, if I wanted a gun for Bull's-eye target shooting, I would want a hairs breath trigger, but this gun is just not it, although it seems to be extremely accurate as is. It is just not the best tool for competition target shooting, but for personal self-defense in a medium sized high capacity concealable carry weapon it is an excellent choice. You can pay more, or you can pay less for other firearms, but I think the Sigma balances the scale between value, quality, accuracy, capacity and dependability the best of any gun on the market today. I'll admit I did polish my trigger internals, because I felt it was gritty out of the box, but it is very smooth and very controllable now.
No one pistol in my mind can do everything. A pistol is a tool like a pair of pliers is a tool. Just like I have various pliers for different purposes in my tool box, certain handguns each have a niche that they can fill better than other handguns. The Sigma come pretty close to being the most useful tool in my inventory for it's intended propose.

 

[Quigar57]

Well said. I'm really glad my Sigma has a long heavy trigger pull like a double action revolver because it does what I bought it to do. I wanted a pistol that the only thing I had to worry about was pulling the trigger if I was involved in a tense and dangerous situation. That trigger pull has got to be deliberate. There is not much of a chance of it going off unless I mean to pull the trigger.
However, if I wanted a gun for Bull's-eye target shooting, I would want a hairs breath trigger, but this gun is just not it, although it seems to be extremely accurate as is. It is just not the best tool for competition target shooting, but for personal self-defense in a medium sized high capacity concealable carry weapon it is an excellent choice. You can pay more, or you can pay less for other firearms, but I think the Sigma balances the scale between value, quality, accuracy, capacity and dependability the best of any gun on the market today. I'll admit I did polish my trigger internals, because I felt it was gritty out of the box, but it is very smooth and very controllable now.
No one pistol in my mind can do everything. A pistol is a tool like a pair of pliers is a tool. Just like I have various pliers for different purposes in my tool box, certain handguns each have a niche that they can fill better than other handguns. The Sigma come pretty close to being the most useful tool in my inventory for it's intended propose.

+1 long triggers save lives

 

[leejack]

Amen!

I've maintained from the beginning that the sigma trigger design is ideal for home defense or carry!

If my sigma is ever called upon to discharge in the middle of the night, it will be an intentional discharge, not an accidental one!

Thanks for the great responses, keep-em coming!

Lee

 

[spricks]

Afternoon all...yep I think all the trigger bashing does make an effect on what people are thinking about the sigma. Like I said before, mine was dry fired a number of times, and was good to go....smooth as silk, right out of the box. I laugh when folks remove this and do that to a perfect shooter, if they would have given it a chance.
What does S&W know about hanguns? LOL....

spricks

 

[ChrisKalan]

Amen!
I second all the above sentiments!

 

[rcflyer]

It seems to me that unless you are willing to pay what is considered what a gun should cost, then it is junk. What I mean is when I bought my Taurus PT1911 people told me it can't be good as good a Kimber, yet I have had Kimber owners fall in love with it. My Hi-Point 995 carbine must be junk because it only cost $200. I have never had a single problem with it and it is extremely accurate. So along those lines my Sigma must be junk because I only paid $300 for it. Everybody knows it has a bad trigger and lousy sights. It won't last and you can't hit anything with that hard trigger pull. Well you know what, next to my PT1911 it is the most accurate of my handguns and I haven't had any problems with it. I just go shoot it and when I pull back that hard trigger it goes bang. So for the naysayers I say this: I am a bottom feeder when it comes to buying guns and my guns do the same thing that yours do: they go bang!

 

[.357 mag]

Man, lots of big words and paragraphs. . Lee, all you have to say is "the Sigma rocks"

anywho, great words.

 

[leejack]

The sigma rocks!

Lee

 

[TACC1]

Well said. I'm really glad my Sigma has a long heavy trigger pull like a double action revolver because it does what I bought it to do. I wanted a pistol that the only thing I had to worry about was pulling the trigger if I was involved in a tense and dangerous situation. That trigger pull has got to be deliberate. There is not much of a chance of it going off unless I mean to pull the trigger.
However, if I wanted a gun for Bull's-eye target shooting, I would want a hairs breath trigger, but this gun is just not it, although it seems to be extremely accurate as is. It is just not the best tool for competition target shooting, but for personal self-defense in a medium sized high capacity concealable carry weapon it is an excellent choice. You can pay more, or you can pay less for other firearms, but I think the Sigma balances the scale between value, quality, accuracy, capacity and dependability the best of any gun on the market today. I'll admit I did polish my trigger internals, because I felt it was gritty out of the box, but it is very smooth and very controllable now.
No one pistol in my mind can do everything. A pistol is a tool like a pair of pliers is a tool. Just like I have various pliers for different purposes in my tool box, certain handguns each have a niche that they can fill better than other handguns. The Sigma come pretty close to being the most useful tool in my inventory for it's intended propose.

I fell for all the hype, too, until I got to the point where I knew I needed something that was ready to go, as-is. That's when I started doing
some serious practice. Now, I try do do All DA, and it's paying off.
TACC1

 

[CajunBass]

Triggers are about like grips to me. Everyone talks about the Glock grip. Big deal. It feels like a Glock. The Sigma feels like a Sigma. Sure there are a few grips that are just awful, but for the most part in my opinion, it's a straw dog.

Same thing with triggers. I've seen a few that were pretty bad, the Nagant revolver, and a RG-22 I saw a few weeks ago, but for the most part, they just feel like they feel.

Yes, my Colt Commander or my Smith & Wesson 17 have "better" triggers than my Sigma. I expected that. They're supposed to.

 

[Harrison]

A lot of shooters are shooting in competition nowdays, both rifle and pistol. This type of shooting puts a premium on a light trigger pull. My benchrest rifle has a 2 oz trigger. You don't see anyone shooting BR with more than a 3 oz pull. Most IPSC shooters want a 2-3 pound pull on their pistols. Other shooters are just using what they see the winners use, and winners don't win with heavy triggers. Carry guns are a different story; however, I know some people that carry what they compete with.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[ScottJ]

This thread is heresy! Sigmas are junk and everyone knows that.

In fact I'll pay shipping to take any internet commando's junk Sigma for proper disposal.

 

[blastfact]

My Sigma HAD a gritty trigger. As did all six I played with before I settled on mine. And yes it's heavy and rubbery. I can pull out a box stock GP-100, and in DA they are not the same. Or any other revolver for that matter. Without the grit in OEM trim it is a heavy rubber band man trigger. As for the rubber/strange brake. It's because the sear tang is not truly square with the striker. And given the striker rotate just a hair either way in the slide. That gives the pistol the feel mine has. It's a easy fix. A Stone and a perfectly flat surface will fix that in about three strokes. But over all there will be little if any that can be done with the heavy trigger. Yeah spring mods do help. And mine is mod'ed. But the cam effect of the sear has it's innate issues. It's what you get with a cam lobe if you will.

If you have a gritty trigger Sigma. It's down right nasty. As for trigger pull heavy or light? A shooter can adjust. Trigger brake is what is nasty in my pistol right now.

Sigmas at not Glocks, they are not DA revolvers, not 1911's, your AR or fav. bolt action trigger. They are Sigma. A designed likable beast.

 

[mikeruns]

CONFOUNDED Al Gore!
I knew he was why I had a heavy trigger!