Push-off & Safety

Bpx4st

Bpx4st

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Somewhere on one of the many forums, posts, comments I read concerning S&W revolvers, I remembered reading about push-off, or the breaking of the cocked hammer by thumb pressure alone. I never really gave it much thought but last night, I thought I would check my 66 out. To my dismay, it may have taken seven to ten pounds of pressure to break the hammer. (Of course, the gun was unloaded)
I'm no gunsmith but I do know how to use Google & everything I read, reminded me that I'm no gunsmith. The concensus was, no amount of push-off is acceptable & could be caused by a plethora of reasons (ok...a few) that I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to amend.
I guess the reason I'm posting this is two-fold. One, is this gun still safe to shoot in both DA & SA, or just DAO, or two, is it a paperweight until I get a gunsmith to address the issue?
I know opinions are well intended & every one is appreciated, I have my own...but I've seen opinions varying from don't worry about it, to worry about it...a lot, so I'm asking for more of an experienced imput about the seriousness of this. I'm not looking for free fix instructions...I believe people need to be paid for their knowledge...but a professional voice would not be ignored. Thank you all in advance & I hope this didn't come across as smart-assed.

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What you describe is not normal and could lead to problems, either for you or the next owner. Best to find a gunsmith and/or replacement action parts and have it fixed.
 
Depending on vintage S&W might fix it for free. Including shipping both ways.

Call them.

They don't like their guns being in a unsafe condition and will return it to factory spec for little cost, even if it is not under warrantee.
 
It's a "72 year model, in excellent condition otherwise but just guessing, it's probably way out of warranty. That would be a blessing if that could happen.

From the little I've been able to find on the internet (nobody wants to be responsible...I get it), it doesn't appear too difficult to fix but precision is the key...with tools I don't own, so I'm figuring on finding a good gunsmith &...ahem...bite the bullet. Could shoot in DAO but not taking any chances.

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The condition is caused by damage or wear to either the SA bevel on the trigger, or the SA cocking notch on the hammer, or both. Modification of the mainspring or the rebound spring (or both) can also contribute, as well as dirt and debris.

If the hammer notch is in-tact and has not been tampered with, you may be able to restore function by sharpening the trigger bevel back to the factory prescribed angle. This is a job for someone that has the proper stone, and knows the correct procedure. If the hammer is damaged, it will have to be replaced. You can't restore a damaged hammer notch.

If the gun came to you used, I would also suspect that the OEM rebound slide spring has been either cut or replaced with a lower poundage, aftermarket one. Replacing the altered rebound slide spring with a new, OEM spring may restore function if the trigger and hammer surfaces are undamaged.

If you cannot find a trusted, trained gunsmith in your area, I would agreee that sending it back to S&W is probably the best way to have the issue resolved.
 
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johngalt said:
Push-off is not a good thing, but you don't want to actually attempt to force it to push off either. The engagement surfaces are tiny, and forcing it can cause the edges to round off and create a problem where none existed before.
Click to expand...

That's how it's checked for proper function. You shouldn't be able to push the hammer off . . .
 
This was not uncommon with the early stainless revolvers, I had a model 64 that developed that problem.

Send it home, they will replace the hammer (and possibly the trigger) and return it to you in no time.

Its been a long time and under different warranty conditions, but I think they did it for free back then.
 
Muss Muggins said:
That's how it's checked for proper function. You shouldn't be able to push the hammer off . . .
Click to expand...
Sure, by applying a few pounds of pressure. But, you can "force it" to push off by applying excessive pressure which will create a problem where one did not originally exist.

Jim
 
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FWIW, I have never tried this so-called safety test on any revolver. Never an issue with any of mine either, but I do know that the sear surface isn't very large, and under the right (wrong) conditions, the sear engagement may be damaged by performing the push off test. I don't believe this"test" to be necessary.

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I had a Model 67 with push off and my gunsmith fixed without replacing any parts. He had a Jig that he put the part in and then he ground the part and that ended the push off. I'm not a gunsmith so he must have known what he was doing because the problem was fixed.
 
I wouldn't consider the 7 to 10 pounds of force that the OP estimated that he applied to the hammer excessive. As fyiimo stated above, there is a jig that insures the proper angle is cut on sear engagement surfaces. Most gunsmiths should have this tool which should solve the dilemma for the OP.
 
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It's a "72 year model, in excellent condition otherwise
Click to expand...

I had an early Model 66, with the same problem. Contacted Smith and Wesson they did not want to fix it:confused:. Person I spoke with stated it was not a safety issue, as the hammer block would prevent the revolver from firing if the hammer was knocked off from the single action position.

After more than a little "back-and-forth, they did send me the replacement part. Sadly I don't remember what the part was.
 
old bear said:
I had an early Model 66, with the same problem. Contacted Smith and Wesson they did not want to fix it:confused:. Person I spoke with stated it was not a safety issue, as the hammer block would prevent the revolver from firing if the hammer was knocked off from the single action position.

After more than a little "back-and-forth, they did send me the replacement part. Sadly I don't remember what the part was.
Click to expand...
That's strange. If it's not a safety issue, why would gunsmiths have a jig to "fix" a non-issue?
The only thing he could have sent would be a new sear or trigger assembly, which is what the gunsmith would "true up" or replace if too much material had been worn off.
After checking it again, it didn't release with the lesser pressure I've seen demonstrated in any videos showing push-off. I may have exerted more pressure than needed. Anyway, I'll just shoot DA untill I can get it checked out. NO GRINDING HAMMER OFF FOR ME! It's too purty.

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murphydog said:
What you describe is not normal and could lead to problems, either for you or the next owner. Best to find a gunsmith and/or replacement action parts and have it fixed.
Click to expand...
The only problem I could foresee for me, would be a ND if I carried it around cocked, which I would never do. The only time I would have it in SA would be in a precision drill at the range...&it would be pointed downrange at that time. DA is how I would shoot in a defensive situation as I have a fairly strong grip & trigger pull so not a problem.
Also, I won't be selling this gun as it was a gift from my son so, no worries there.
I do appreciate your imput though, as with everyones. This is a great forum!

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laytonj1 said:
I don't understand. Please explain.

Jim
Click to expand...

The function test is to assume a normal one hand grip, put your thumb on the hammer spur, and give it a shove. If the hammer falls forward, the innards need reworking or replacing. If it's properly fitted, your thumb can't overcome the mechanics. There is no threshold for "too much force," unless of course you smack it with a babbitt . . .
 
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I guess my question for the OP would be....were there any "symptoms" exibited by the gun that would indicate there was a problem with the single action prior to your test for push off?

The S&W armorer's manual describes the pressure used to test the hammer trigger interface as "nominal". (whatever that is) Having some experience with testing for, and repair of this condition, I would estimate this pressure as 4 - 6 pounds. Excessive pressure should not be used as this can damage the very sharp bevel on the trigger.

Revolvers suffering from push off will usually also exhibit specific symptoms of the problem, including a "mushy" (opposite of crisp) and very light SA trigger let off.....below 2.5 lbs.

Symptoms can manifest themselves after years and years of heavy use, build up of dirt, debris or old/improper lubricants.....or from modification of factory installed components, including the mainspring, mainspring strain screw, rebound slide spring, or the hammer/trigger SA interface. (or combination of these factors)

Since the term "nominal" pressure is subject to a wide range of interpretation............if there are no other obvious mechanical or felt symptoms indicating a problem with the hammer and trigger, and the internals are confirmed clean and properly lubricated, perhaps a better test to check the integrity of the single action for most revolver owners would be to simply use a quality trigger pull gauge. Factory minimum recommended SA pull is 3 pounds.
 
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That's strange. If it's not a safety issue, why would gunsmiths have a jig to "fix" a non-issue?
Click to expand...

Good question. One I can't answer. Other than the fact there are folks, such as myself, who like the items we own to work properly.
 
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