Quest for "Perfect" 44 Special Load?

Good info, lot's to think about.
My chamber throats allow a .430 bullet to be pushed through with some effort. I'm shooting .430 bullets.
The leading in the first inch of the barrel is a secondary consideration to accuracy. I've found bullets that don't lead @ 950fps, just none that are accurate enough. The converted 27-2 has a .100 wide front sight, I want my groups to be smaller than the front sight width at all times. This translates into about 10" @ 100 yards. In theory, if it's wider than the front sight I can hit it.
 
I have had great luck with 6.0 to 6.5 grs of HP-38 under 240 to 255 cast bullets of various shapes. The 6.5 of HP-38 level pretty much duplicates the Skeeter Skelton load of 7.5 grs of Unique.

Mark in GA
 
Sounds like the bullet isn't obdurating, hence the leading.

I'd try some .431 if you can find or make them.

Might raise the pressure enough to make it work without leading and without hotrodding too much.

I worked up a 6.5g W231 load under a 429421 and find it just under the Skeeter load and more pleasant. Still hard hitting and accurate.
 
Gee, I wonder what happened to the perfect fit/.430 chambers with.430 bullets???

You're getting flame cutting, hence the having to use p+ pressures/velocities with your rock hard bullets to get them to seal properly. Also don't be afraid to buy bullets with gas checks on them. The gas checks will work even with the low 44spl velocities/speeds.

The 44spl is one of my 3 favorite calibers, been using/shooting it since the mid 80's and still use 2 different firearms chambered for the 44spl today. My other 2 "favorite" calibers are the 38spl & the 45acp. All of them are low pressure calibers with the 44spl having the lowest pressure of the 3. I've cast and swaged (swaged ='s lead and jacketed bullets) my own bullets for 30+ years now. And currently use/cast/swage these bullets for the 44spl:
265g swaged jacketed hp
200g wad cutter
220g hollow base wad cutter
200g hollow based field nose
200g "thompson" swc hp
220g "thompson" swc
250g "thompson swc
220g "keith" hollow base swc
245g "keith" hp (penta & round) swc
245g "keith" swc
250g "keith" swc
200g sire point
250g hp (penta & round) field nose
260g field nose
310g field nose

I use/cast 8bhn bullets with any of those molds to this day and don't have any problems with leading in either of my 44spls with loads that are from mild to wild. Started using a 8bhn alloy back in the 80's and have shot countless 1000's of them over the decades without any issues/leading.

Do yourself a huge favor and start looking for people that sell soft bullets (like matt's) or the powder coated bullets. The pc'ing process makes a soft bullet that flat out works. Or start casting your own, I roll my own so I can make/tailor bullets to my needs.

good luck
 
Forest r, thanks for the info I'll have to try some .431 bullets. I ordered some from Matt's, but I had them sized .430.
I really like the Lyman 429421 and I've started to gather up casting tools, just don't really have the time for another hobby.
 
There's nothing wrong with your .430 bullets, stick with them. It's the bullets hardness that's causing your problems. I was joking with jtcarm, about bullet fit. You actually have allot going on that is unique with the 44spl that can and will cause problems that other calibers/cartridges don't have to deal with.

The biggest issue with the 44spl is it's brass and it's pressure. I mentioned 3 low pressure cartridges in an earlier thread, the 44spl, the 38spl & the 45acp. Of the 3, the 44spl is allot harder to reload for, hands down.

The brass:
The 38spl & the 45acp uses 11/1000th's thick brass. The 44spl uses 12/1000th's thick brass. 2/1000th's doesn't sound like much but you were going to buy a bullet that's 1/1000th larger.

The max pressures:
The 44spl ='s 15,500psi
The 38spl ='s 17,000psi
The 45acp ='s 21,000psi

Here's what's truly going on:
You tested a .430 bullet in your cylinders and found that you had to push that bullet to get it to go all the way through the cylinder. That's a good cylinder/bullet fit. What you need to do is put a .430 bullet back in a cylinder and push it until you feel resistance and measure from the shoulder (.430) of the stuck bullet to the end of your cylinder. Now take a 44spl brass and put it in the same cylinder and measure from the end of the case to the end of the cylinder. Subtract the brass measurement from the bullet shoulder measurement. This will tell you how far that bullet has to travel (freebore) before it can seal anything with what's called a mechanical fit.

Mechanical fit ='s there's not enough pressure for bullet obturation so the bullet has to travel to the point in the cylinder where the cylinders tight enough to have the bullet mechanically seal it. Hence, the little dutch boy with his finger in the dike.

You pull the trigger and bang, the primer ignites the powder and pressure builds. You have what's known as a short start pressure, it's much lower than the peek pressure you get from a longer powder burn (as the bullet goes down the bbl). But it's enough to move the bullet forward and at the same time expand the brass outward. So you have the brass expand outward and seal the cylinder (soot marks on side of case ='s not good). In that mili-second the bullet moves forward and clears the case. The bullet at that point is 24/1000th's smaller in diameter (minimum) than the cylinder. The bullet either has to be soft enough to obturate/seal the cylinder or flame cutting will occur.

The 38spl only has 22/1000th's to seal and typical pressures are around 14,500 for target loads and 15,500+ for stand loads.

The 45acp also has only 22/1000th's to expand but the huge difference is the 45acp only has to travel around 20/1000th's of freebore and the base of the bullet will be in the bbl.

That's why revolver shooters get the "carbon ring" in their cylinders. You have burnt/burning gas at the base of the bullet with 20/1000th's+ difference in diameter when the bullet 1st leave the case.

A link about bullet alloy and obturation, very good reading.

Cast bullet alloy's and bullet obturation

For what it's worth, when Keith developed his loads/bullets for the 44spl. He thought 12 to 1 alloy or 12bhn (here we go again keith's 1200fps/12bhn, see a pattern here?) was extemely hard & that's what used. Another excellent link to the 44spl, it covers the bullets they designed, the changes they made and the alloys (bhn's) the people that designed the bullets used.

The .44 Special is renowned for being the source of Elmer Keith's inspiration, for giving rise to the .44 Magnum

At the end of the day you have the correct sized bullet, the problem is the bullet bhn that you're using. A 18bhn bullet takes 24,000spi to fully obturate and that aisn't going to happen in a 44spl. That's why you're not getting leading in the hotter loads. The hotter load is:
1. Expanding the bullet's base better (in the gap between the 24/1000th's space at the end of the case to the .430 shoulder point) that the lighter load.
2. The heavier load is getting the rock hard bullet through that same zone faster (faster ='s less time to flame cut).

Those are to excellent links and well worth reading. The both articles were written by a highly recommended lead bullet authority,author Glen E Fryxell.

Good luck and good reading. If you truly want to master your 44spl then repeat what the masters did and you will have their knowledge as a base to expand on.

An old beater snub nosed 44spl truck gun with 220g hbwc's turned around to make a huge hp. And one of my favorite plinkers, a 6 1/2" bbl's 624, I switch back and forth between iron sights and different reddots & scopes.



That 220g hbwc shot out of a snub nosed 44spl.

 
I guess Skeeter knew what he was doing…..
I loaded up some LazerCast 240 SWC's over 7.5 grains of Unique and a CCI 300 today. Thought they would make good plinkers since I'm running low on 2400.
No leading and plenty accurate, this is 3 shots @ 100 yards, fired from Elmer Keith's seated backrest position.
 

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Your eyes are better than mine! I shoot handguns at 100 yds every so often. I just can't see well enough with the iron sights to keep a decent group.
 
Gee, I wonder what happened to the perfect fit/.430 chambers with.430 bullets???

You're getting flame cutting, hence the having to use p+ pressures/velocities with your rock hard bullets to get them to seal properly. Also don't be afraid to buy bullets with gas checks on them. The gas checks will work even with the low 44spl velocities/speeds.

<snip?
I use/cast 8bhn bullets with any of those molds to this day and don't have any problems with leading in either of my 44spls with loads that are from mild to wild. Started using a 8bhn alloy back in the 80's and have shot countless 1000's of them over the decades without any issues/leading.

Do yourself a huge favor and start looking for people that sell soft bullets (like matt's) or the powder coated bullets. The pc'ing process makes a soft bullet that flat out works. Or start casting your own, I roll my own so I can make/tailor bullets to my needs.

good luck

I am always frustrated and admittedly skeptical by reading "no leading", because with what I have seen the gun must be mechanically perfect and in sync with the bullet size, or lead will splatter at the forcing cone area, regardless of velocity, hardness, load, shape, or diameter.

p.s. Just read the excellent post from Forrest r and will consider the pressure levels involved with problem guns/loads. All my commercial bullets are harder, at least br12. My higher velocity bullets, now mostly coated, are br18. All guns that present a problem have adequate or reworked throat diameters, some with re-angled and smoothed forcing cones. Something else is going on then, when leading occurs around the forcing cone area.

I guess at this point, in terms of bullets I buy, everything will be coated. What remains is a potential puzzlement with any I cast myself, for which I am equipped but have never started.
 
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I received some 255 grain Keith type SWC's from Matt's Bullet's today, they are sized .430 and are quite a bit softer than the leadheads or the lazercast. Matt said 10-12 BHN and I can mark them with a my thumb nail.
They look like excellent bullet's.
So, I loaded some up this afternoon. Shot about sixty rounds before the light started to fade. No leading at the 950fps level.
Best group was obtained with 8.8 grains of Longshot and WLP primers, 5 rounds into 2.5" @ 50 yards with one flyer….So I loaded 50 rounds of these for more testing.
This may well be the bullet I've been looking for. That's one of the things I like about this forum, the information available for the asking. I had never even heard of Matt's Bullet's before starting this thread.
 
I did some more shooting today with the bullets from Matt's. Had some time at mid-day and lot's of light so I hiked up to my range. I was really impressed with how well they shot. The best load for my gun was 8.8 grains of Longshot, WLP primers in Winchester brass. I didn't Chronograph them, but in the past this load has produced about 975fps with a 250 SWC.
At 50 yards I had some good groups, 3-4". With a center hold in the 6" bull of a NRA 100 yard Military rifle target they all stayed in the black, then I shot a cylinder full at a 10" white paper plate at the 100 yard line. 5 of the six rounds hit the plate with a center hold, the group was about 12". This was pretty interesting as all my other loads had been about 8" low @100 when sighted in @ 50. I shot a few rounds @ 25 yards, they were about 2" above point of aim.
I have a 10" gong @ 50 yards and another 10" gong @ 100 yards. A center hold gave me center hits on the 50 yard gong while a center hold gave me hits on the bottom half of the 100 yard gong. A slightly above center hold on the 100 yard gong gave me several strings with 4 hits out of 6 shots.
This is a really good performance for me.
Matt's bullets left very little leading, appears to be more of a smear of lube than a build up of lead. Accuracy didn't seem to degrade at all over 50 rounds.
I do believe this load will do anything I'd ask of a 44 special.
I'm gonna need a lot more of Matt's bullet's!
 
Good job!!!

You will find that the loads/pressures you keep finding that are the most accurate is the "zone" in which your revolver will perforn the best. That's an excellent alloy that matt's cast those bullets with. It's an extremely easy alloy to duplicate.

Duplicate ='s ww's (clip on wheel weight lead) or most outdoor range scrap lead + 2% tin.
 
I'd like to start casting some day, got a lead pot, a few molds and an old lubri-sizer. Just need to get started.
 

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