I recently purchased an M&P 15 optics ready carbine. I outfitted it with Troy industries folding battle sights and took it to the range. Now, as an expert marksman and combat veteran, I am very familiar with this weapon platform. However, on the first shot I immediately noticed that felt recoil with this rifle is considerably more than that of a military issue m4. After trying to figure out this issue, I have realized that I am familiar with how to use this weapon, not how to customize it. My mind is numb after reading about all of the variations of the platform and I need all the help I can get on this. So, I would appreciate any insight into how I can reduce the felt recoil of this rifle. Otherwise, I love everything about the m&p15.
-
Forum Update: We've upgraded the software to improve security, performance, and the overall experience.
👉 Read why we made the change | Support the Forum
Question about recoil
- Thread starter w225151
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Welcome to the Forum!
Heavier recoil spring or heavier buffer would be my suggestion. I suspect the gun is set up to run with underpowered ammo, and that you are using full power like M193 or M885. Can you tell what kind of buffer you have? I would try going to an H2 or H3.
Here's a buffer weight chart:
Slash's Heavy Buffers | Reference
Heavier recoil spring or heavier buffer would be my suggestion. I suspect the gun is set up to run with underpowered ammo, and that you are using full power like M193 or M885. Can you tell what kind of buffer you have? I would try going to an H2 or H3.
Here's a buffer weight chart:
Slash's Heavy Buffers | Reference
Stebo
Member
One theory posited by a forum member is that S&W over gasses the M&P because their target market will be shooting cheap, underpowered ammo, and they over gas the rifle to insure it works every time with any of it, therefore you need a heavier buffer to reduce the recoil. The M&P15 OR ships with a Carbine weight buffer, and it is common practice to swap with an H. Personally I would be hesitant to start with an H3, and YMMV with the H2.
To be honest, the only other rifles I've shot with less recoil than my OR are a 22LR and a 17HMR, ..... but I succumbed to the "need a heavier buffer" theory recently and installed an H in the OR but have not shot it yet. I also installed an H3 in my home-built, but that's a 20" rifle gas system with a carbine length receiver extension that previously had a Carbine weight buffer. I perceived no difference in recoil with the H3 in my home-built, but have had a couple of FTL's when the rifle gets dirty, and now notice a loud "thwang" as the buffer recoils.
We're not talking about a lot of money, so I would recommend an H buffer to be safe and give it a try.
To be honest, the only other rifles I've shot with less recoil than my OR are a 22LR and a 17HMR, ..... but I succumbed to the "need a heavier buffer" theory recently and installed an H in the OR but have not shot it yet. I also installed an H3 in my home-built, but that's a 20" rifle gas system with a carbine length receiver extension that previously had a Carbine weight buffer. I perceived no difference in recoil with the H3 in my home-built, but have had a couple of FTL's when the rifle gets dirty, and now notice a loud "thwang" as the buffer recoils.
We're not talking about a lot of money, so I would recommend an H buffer to be safe and give it a try.
JaPes
Member
There are a few differences from your civilian AR15 to the military M4 you trained on other than the presence of select fire.
1. The military M4 uses a full auto bolt carrier group. The civilian AR15 uses a semi-auto bolt carrier group. The heavier bolt carrier group slows down the action to create the right cyclic rate for select/full auto fire. The heavier bolt also mitigates some of the recoil.
2. Some civilian AR15's are intentionally over gassed. This is done so that the civilian rifle will cycle the variety of commercial .223 ammo on the market, from weak to strong. The higher pressure sent down the gas tube to cycles the action with more vigor, resulting in more perceived recoil.
What to do about it? The trick is to try and slow down the cyclic rate of your semi-auto rifle to a rate closer to the M4 you trained on. That means increasing the static mass of the the action.
I took the easiest & least expensive route. I purchased a heavier buffer to slow down the cyclic rate of my rifle. More static mass for the propellant gasses to overcome. I experimented with a "H" & "H2" buffer. Either does the trick in my rifles without inducing failures. I now perceive a milder recoil impulse.
The more involved route would be to install a full auto bolt carrier group, the appropriate buffer, and the appropriate power buffer spring.
As I said earlier, the reason the rifles are over gassed is to ensure operation with the variety of commercial .223 ammo. S&W doesn't want incessant calls to customer service because random brands & spec of .223 ammo won't work. The negative possible outcome of adjusting your rifle's cyclic rate is that you may not be able to cycle some commercial .223 ammo.
Since I decided to just install different weighted buffers, I can easily switch out between a carbine, H, and H2 buffer at the range.
Good luck with your rifle!
1. The military M4 uses a full auto bolt carrier group. The civilian AR15 uses a semi-auto bolt carrier group. The heavier bolt carrier group slows down the action to create the right cyclic rate for select/full auto fire. The heavier bolt also mitigates some of the recoil.
2. Some civilian AR15's are intentionally over gassed. This is done so that the civilian rifle will cycle the variety of commercial .223 ammo on the market, from weak to strong. The higher pressure sent down the gas tube to cycles the action with more vigor, resulting in more perceived recoil.
What to do about it? The trick is to try and slow down the cyclic rate of your semi-auto rifle to a rate closer to the M4 you trained on. That means increasing the static mass of the the action.
I took the easiest & least expensive route. I purchased a heavier buffer to slow down the cyclic rate of my rifle. More static mass for the propellant gasses to overcome. I experimented with a "H" & "H2" buffer. Either does the trick in my rifles without inducing failures. I now perceive a milder recoil impulse.
The more involved route would be to install a full auto bolt carrier group, the appropriate buffer, and the appropriate power buffer spring.
As I said earlier, the reason the rifles are over gassed is to ensure operation with the variety of commercial .223 ammo. S&W doesn't want incessant calls to customer service because random brands & spec of .223 ammo won't work. The negative possible outcome of adjusting your rifle's cyclic rate is that you may not be able to cycle some commercial .223 ammo.
Since I decided to just install different weighted buffers, I can easily switch out between a carbine, H, and H2 buffer at the range.
Good luck with your rifle!
JaPes
Member
First, nice home-built full length AR15. I've had an itch to build an AR of similar barrel length to serve as a bullseye target range rifle. Pictures please.
Second, from everything I've read (and I can be wrong) the rifle length gas system is supposed to be less harsh than the shorter carbine length system. Installing a heavy H3 buffer is probably slowing down the cyclic rate of the BCG too much (causing in essence a short stroke), inducing failure to load.
At what position do you notice the spent case ejection pattern from your rifle length gas system AR with the H3 buffer?
Stebo
Member
John,
I need more range time to see what's really going on. My original intention was to buy an H, H2 and H3 and experiment on both the OR and home-built, but at the last moment got cold feet on spending the extra $35 for the H2. I'll try the H and see how it responds.
I love the look of it, not certain others would. I went with a 20" crowned stainless Shilen barrel with matched bolt, Les Bauer carrier with Colt parts, 15" Midwest Industries FF tube, and Flat Dark Earth color for the Magpul MOE buttstock, pistol grip, and FF tube. That's all built on an Anderson Industries lower and upper. The learning experience and researching parts and putting it all together was alot of fun. Pictures maybe sometime later.
I need more range time to see what's really going on. My original intention was to buy an H, H2 and H3 and experiment on both the OR and home-built, but at the last moment got cold feet on spending the extra $35 for the H2. I'll try the H and see how it responds.
I love the look of it, not certain others would. I went with a 20" crowned stainless Shilen barrel with matched bolt, Les Bauer carrier with Colt parts, 15" Midwest Industries FF tube, and Flat Dark Earth color for the Magpul MOE buttstock, pistol grip, and FF tube. That's all built on an Anderson Industries lower and upper. The learning experience and researching parts and putting it all together was alot of fun. Pictures maybe sometime later.
Last edited:
MichiganScott
Member
JaPes is correct. A regular buffer is all that's ever needed in a rifle length system.
I suspect that the reason the OP new rifle seems to kick more than his M4 is that the new rifle is lighter. The M4 will have had the heavier carrier and probably more gear hooked on to it.
Going to a heavier buffer will only reduce actual recoil a small amount because of the additional weight of the heavier buffer. However, perceived recoil may be less because of the longer recoil pulse.
I always get a big kick out any discussion about recoil when we talk .223 of 5.56 NATO cartridges. After shooting a Garand and M1A in High Power competition for years, the AR hardly seems recoil at all.
I have noticed that my Sport with the H buffer recoils a lot less than the new Sport with the stock buffer. They both have pretty light FF tubular handguards and big scopes but they still arent that heavy. My original stays down on its bipod, the one with the stock carbine buffer jumps off of the bipod. So when I can I will replace the buffer for a heavier one.
I agree with you. The AR platform really does not typically have much recoil to speak of. That was not my point. My point was that I am very used to operating with less recoil than what this rifle is dishing out. I'm not in danger of separating my shoulder by any means, but the increased recoil is throwing me off of my game, especially when it comes to follow up shots.
rojodiablo
Member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
- Messages
- 1,759
- Reaction score
- 1,190
I'd say open up the buffer by using a drift pin and just add a little weight; a ball bearing or 2 around 1/4-3/8" diameter. Pack them in with a cotton ball. This will heavy it up, without changing anything else. I too noticed the Sport 'snaps' when the trigger is pulled. But it's a stone ax reliable, so I am not up to swapping anything to mess with function. The buffer tube trick I did on a buddy's rifle for him, and he likes it. It does shoot a touch softer.
A lead egg sinker or 2 will work just fine also, and I bet you have a couple 1/4oz egg sinkers in your garage as we speak!
Springco blue spring with an h2 buffer helped tame my recoil a bit when using 5.56 ammo. Probably about $60 with shipping for both parts. Good luck and stay frosty.
Will that set up hurt reliability when I'm using .223? Lets face it, 5.56 can be slightly more difficult and expensive to get ahold of. I don't have Uncle Sam paying for all of my ammo anymore
rojodiablo
Member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
- Messages
- 1,759
- Reaction score
- 1,190
Carbine I would assume with the 16" barrel.
But you can not necessarily judge the buffer weight when looking at 'industry standards'. The reason you need to check each piece is because it is easy to build a working system via overgassing, then tune it back with spring and buffer- whereas when a shop builds the rifle right to the standard, any deviation with pressures from ammo results in cycling issues.
Having tossed parts around in several ill functioning rifles, I have found that a perfect functioning gun had a spring which was almost 3/4" short. And factory spring, not a cut spring. When mixed and matched with different buffer, wow, it was all kinds of goofy. We'd get a spring and a buffer that was flawless with 1 type of ammo. But then the match grade Black Hills was a 50/50 cyle fail. And Wolf ammo was the same. But Privi was about 80% good to go.
I had to sort between 3 buffers, and 2 springs, with 4 types of ammo. For the same reason, the guy wanted a better shooting gun with less recoil. In the end, the fix was simple: Put 2 weights in the buffer, and a sissy pad on the rifle butt.
Then, to cement his thoughts on the recoil being manageable, I had him run 3 thru my 7mag Ruger lightweight, with no pad out back.
After his bell quit ringing, he concluded the AR recoil was at an acceptable level.
It's the best cure I have found for the AR's massive recoil yet. If you really want to use the AR for a range gun, drop in a TImney trigger or a RRA 2 stage. They are a LOT better than a mil spec trigger. I feel they would make a far better investment than mucking with buffers and springs.
glen_farmer
US Veteran
w225151
When pulling the trigger on the M16, were you always in full battle rattle? All that stuff would tend to isolate the recoil somewhat.
Also, how on earth can anyone say the AR15 has enough recoil to even think about? My wife has instructed a bunch of ladies on AR15 with the NRA Women On Target activities. All these ladies (including some very young ones) enjoyed shooting the AR, and never mentioned recoil. The AR's used in these activities were provided by the instructors who are LEO, military, or NRA RSO's. So, you can well imagine that there is a good spread of manufactures AR's represented. If any one rifle was a recoil monster someone would have certainly said something.
When pulling the trigger on the M16, were you always in full battle rattle? All that stuff would tend to isolate the recoil somewhat.
Also, how on earth can anyone say the AR15 has enough recoil to even think about? My wife has instructed a bunch of ladies on AR15 with the NRA Women On Target activities. All these ladies (including some very young ones) enjoyed shooting the AR, and never mentioned recoil. The AR's used in these activities were provided by the instructors who are LEO, military, or NRA RSO's. So, you can well imagine that there is a good spread of manufactures AR's represented. If any one rifle was a recoil monster someone would have certainly said something.
No, i've spent lots of time behind the trigger with just my uniform on and ACH. Also, please read the other posts I put up regarding recoil of this rifle. I have had several people put replies on here trying to make it sound as though I'm pretending like my AR kicks like a mule. What I am saying is that this particular rifle is far more snappy than any m4 or AR variant that I have ever fired. It honestly feels more on par with my AK. I have a simple question about how to change this, and hearing about girls shooting AR's does not get me any closer to a solution. I have fired these weapons with good success for the better part of the last decade. I am not complaining about how terrible the recoil is, i just want to know how to reign it in a little more for increased control.
