Question for LEOs and First Responders

[wildenout]

I was once EMT trained a while ago just after finishing high school, but never really did anything with it. So I am asking, on occasion when you have to "expose" the patient for any reason. Have you ever come across a concealed weapon? If so, what did you do? Or is there a certain protocal that is already established? I am just curious seeing as permits are on the rise.

 

[A10]

I had several occasions on stops where the person was packing, and those all ended pleasantly, usually in a conversation about the weapon of choice. Ataccident scenes, firearms were secured just like any other valuable item, and taken to the precinct and held until the person could claim them if there were no relativesavailable to take possession. I spent a lot of timepatrolling Eastern Washingtom, where at the time if there WASN'T a gun present it was suspicious!

 

[Alpo]

Now, that's nice. I've been telling people for years that a gun is NOT an evil machine of destruction, but is just a THING, that is usually kinda valuable.

So to hear that, if I were in a car wreck and was bleeding in the street, the cops in Auburn would find my gun and treat it like my wallet and my Rolex. It is a valuable item that is taken into protective custody until someone can claim it.

Not treated as though it proves I am a criminal, and needs to have the serial number run to see if it's stolen, and then I'd need a lawyer to get it back.

 

[SgtLumpy]

Not treated as though it proves I am a criminal, and needs to have the serial number run to see if it's stolen, and then I'd need a lawyer to get it back.

Heck no. It doesn't prove or even suggest that you're a criminal. I'd take care of it just the same way I'd take care of your Les Paul or your Leica. I'd run the serial numbers on any and all of those, just like I'd run your DL number and your VIN to be sure none of them were stolen/wanted. But unless I got a hit, you'd get it all back safely. Without the need for a lawyer. I don't know any reason why you wouldn't unless you were carrying where you weren't supposed to or if you yourself weren't supposed to be carrying.

Have you had some kind of negative experience with all that?


Sgt Lumpy

 

[A10]

Now, that's nice. I've been telling people for years that a gun is NOT an evil machine of destruction, but is just a THING, that is usually kinda valuable.

So to hear that, if I were in a car wreck and was bleeding in the street, the cops in Auburn would find my gun and treat it like my wallet and my Rolex. It is a valuable item that is taken into protective custody until someone can claim it.

Not treated as though it proves I am a criminal, and needs to have the serial number run to see if it's stolen, and then I'd need a lawyer to get it back.

I left the force in 1990......can't speak for some of these new kids. But Auburn is more old school Washington than a lot of places on the west side.

 

[Alpo]

Heck no. It doesn't prove or even suggest that you're a criminal. I'd take care of it just the same way I'd take care of your Les Paul or your Leica. I'd run the serial numbers on any and all of those, just like I'd run your DL number and your VIN to be sure none of them were stolen/wanted. But unless I got a hit, you'd get it all back safely. Without the need for a lawyer. I don't know any reason why you wouldn't unless you were carrying where you weren't supposed to or if you yourself weren't supposed to be carrying.

Have you had some kind of negative experience with all that?


Sgt Lumpy

Really? Why?

No. I haven't had a "negative experience". Haven't been stopped by the cops in over 30 years. I found that if you obey the traffic laws, especially the ones about speeding, the cops don't pull you over as much.

I've just heard, from many other people.

But since you brought it up - if YOU pulled me for speeding, and discovered I was carrying a gun, would you take it and run the serial number, to make sure it wasn't stolen?

Would you then run the number of the Rolex I'm wearing?

How about the number of the laptop computer next to me on the seat?

The number of my smartphone? Hell, smartphones, nowadays, cost more than some guns.

If you would run the number of my gun - why?

If you would not run the number of the other things - why not?

 

[LouisianaJoe]

Location is everything. Some states will just return the gun. In New York you will probably go to jail. In New Orleans, someone will steal it.

 

[SgtLumpy]

If you would run the number of my gun - why?

If you would not run the number of the other things - why not?

I'd nearly always run a gun. Guns stay in NCIC forever. Guns are more likely to be used in a more serious crime than watches or phones. I wouldn't run an article (watch, laptop, phone) unless something made me xtra suspicious. Articles stay in NCIC for a year.

If you were sitting at home and I stopped someone, ran their gun, got a hit that it was stolen from YOU five years ago, you'd be pretty happy. I think.

If you were the one on the traffic stop and I ran your gun and it came back clear, you'd be pretty happy. I think.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[redneckemt]

Cops running guns without Pc really should be taken through the Courts. But if every Officer is doing it on every Contact 100% of the time. It might not go far but its still an issue.

Now if I find a gun in the back of the truck and you re in bad shape. Its getting unloaded and handed off to the Cops and I m documenting who I handed it too. I take knifes away from Diabetics no way I want to chance somebody coming up swinging from a head injury to have a gun. A knife they get my partner as I run away. A gun lowers my chances.

 

[GaryS]

You should make the trip to Fort Worth and listen to my presentation on dealing with armed patients at the Texas EMS Conference.

Cops running guns without Pc really should be taken through the Courts. But if every Officer is doing it on every Contact 100% of the time. It might not go far but its still an issue.

Now if I find a gun in the back of the truck and you re in bad shape. Its getting unloaded and handed off to the Cops and I m documenting who I handed it too. I take knifes away from Diabetics no way I want to chance somebody coming up swinging from a head injury to have a gun. A knife they get my partner as I run away. A gun lowers my chances.

 

[Alpo]

I'd nearly always run a gun. Guns stay in NCIC forever. Guns are more likely to be used in a more serious crime than watches or phones. I wouldn't run an article (watch, laptop, phone) unless something made me xtra suspicious. Articles stay in NCIC for a year.

If you were sitting at home and I stopped someone, ran their gun, got a hit that it was stolen from YOU five years ago, you'd be pretty happy. I think.

If you were the one on the traffic stop and I ran your gun and it came back clear, you'd be pretty happy. I think.


Sgt Lumpy

I've having trouble following your logic.

Running the gun through NCIC is to see if it's stolen, right?

"Guns are more likely to be used in a more serious crime". So if I rob a jewelry story in El Paso, and head west, and you stop me and find the gun, you run it through NCIC. How is knowing that it has not been reported stolen helping with the serious crime of armed robbery in Texas? How will running the numbers help any with the dead clerk I left in El Paso?

And the Rolex on my arm, that I stole from the jewelry store - you don't run it?

And, while I'd be happy how ever you found my stolen gun

"If you were the one on the traffic stop and I ran your gun and it came back clear, you'd be pretty happy. I think."

no. I wouldn't be happy. I'd be upset. Just like having to PROVE that I'm NOT A CRIMINAL before I can buy a gun (background check), I'd be mad as hell that MY PROPERTY had to be proven to be MY PROPERTY, just because of what type of property it was.

You've stated that it is not about the value. You'd run that 300-dollar Model 10 but not that 1800-dollar Rolex. It's simply that it's a gun.

 

[Brian41]

Good discussion and I've often wondered about what would happen if I was in an accident and was carrying a gun. I was concerned too when I was working if I had an accident at work and I was carrying a gun as they had a no gun policy there. For that reason I seldom carried unless I was on call and had to go to a store in a bad neighborhood.
I wouldn't care for having my gun run if I was stopped for a traffic violation though. I would think my having a concealed permit and valid drivers license would be enough to show I was a good guy. We do have handgun registration in Michigan though and I have heard of them checking to see if it's registered in your name as that happened to a buddy once.

 

[Len]

Ran across armed patients all the time. If they were conscious and alert, I'd ask them to hand it over to family [if present] or PD on scene. If the patient was unconscious, the firearm went to the on scene LEO.

Unfortunately my SOP had to change a little after a gun we removed from a patient's belt was removed and handed over to on site LEO and then subsequently turned up missing. [Not accusing or complaining here, crazy things happen at nasty medical scenes!] If I had the time, I started to note the serial number of the gun and the agency/name/badge # of the person I turned it over to on my run sheets. Chain of custody and all that...and it's not fun to be accused of stealing a dying man's gun!!!!

Unless it's actually in the way of patient care in the vehicle, I leave car guns where they are. I inform LEO that it's in there so they can secure it after we're gone.

While working in the ER, we have patients delivered to us either dead or dying, and a gun will fall out of their pockets while we're doing CPR...or we find it when we cut the clothes off.

Our policy with guns is to remove them from the treatment area, unload, document it on the triage sheet, and turn them over to security to hold in their lockbox.

If the patient dies the gun goes to LE agency. The law is just too ambiguous about who takes ownership of the gun after the owner dies....and it is IMO bad practice to hand a gun to a grieving family....

All that stuff can be sorted out later when things have settled down a little.

Len

PS...in and urban ER with a "State Law/No Guns" sign outside the ER doors, and a metal detector at the entrance, we have a lot of patients and their "visitors" park their guns in the bushes outside the building. Security is required to search for guns in the bushes at the beginning of each shift...and they turn up about 30 a year!!!

 

[wildenout]

Wow, crazy direction..

 

[S&W45Colt]

A lot of major arrests result from simple things like tag checks, ID checks, gun checks etc. No one complains when a murder, rapist etc is caught because of a Tag check etc. Same theory on gun checks. It's an effective way to catch criminals, especially burglars.

No one's knocking on your door to check gun serial numbers, no one's stopped you for the express purpose of checking the serial number. If it bothers you that bad, don't do something to get stopped.

My prior posts I think, show me to come down solidly on the side of Constitutional rights, none are being violated here, not even close.

 

[PA Reb]

I remember one incident where an individual was admitted to the ICU after he wrecked and flipped his vehicle while running from the police. One would think that either the first responders, the police or the E.D. people would have checked the guys clothing but it was all delivered to the ICU along with the patient rolled up in a plastic patient belongings bag. I was looking through this bag for patient I.D. and found a loaded and cocked derringer in his pants front pocket. I took it into and empty room, decocked it and then unloaded it. It seemed to me that this guy was ready to use it if the cops had stopped him before he wrecked. The gun was of course then turned over to the police.

 

[Beemerguy53]

I was once EMT trained a while ago just after finishing high school, but never really did anything with it. So I am asking, on occasion when you have to "expose" the patient for any reason. Have you ever come across a concealed weapon? If so, what did you do? Or is there a certain protocal that is already established? I am just curious seeing as permits are on the rise.

Having been a firefighter in inner-city Baltimore for 30 years, most of the concealed weapons I came across were not being carried legally...

In one of the last fatal shootings I responded to in my career, we had four young men shot on a front porch. One was DRT (Dead Right There), one was on the way out, and the other two were critically injured. When we went to move one of them, his Model 10 fell out of his coat pocket.

Illegal carry was so common in the 'hood that I took it for granted that almost everyone I saw walking down the street was armed...

 

[feralmerril]

Sounds like the old west.

 

[old bear]

During most of my time in L/E, legal CCW was not common, so very few "legal" C/C weapons were recovered. I can only remember this happening twice. Both times I took control of the weapon, and booked it into personal property, for safekeeping. It was department policy that all items that were booked into evidence or personal property be run NCIC.
Both times the handgun was returned to the owner in short fashion.

 

[SgtLumpy]

"If you were the one on the traffic stop and I ran your gun and it came back clear, you'd be pretty happy. I think."

no. I wouldn't be happy. I'd be upset. Just like having to PROVE that I'm NOT A CRIMINAL before I can buy a gun (background check), I'd be mad as hell that MY PROPERTY had to be proven to be MY PROPERTY, just because of what type of property it was.

You've stated that it is not about the value. You'd run that 300-dollar Model 10 but not that 1800-dollar Rolex. It's simply that it's a gun.

I don't think I said anything about "value". It's because it's a gun - Absolutely. It has nothing to do with violating your rights or you having to prove that you're not a criminal. I'm not randomly stopping you and running your gun. I'm stopping you because you've violated a law. Dispite what you see on TV, MOST major crimes are solved because the criminals ran a stop sign or had a tail light out.

I don't know that your gun isn't stolen or wanted in connection with a serious crime, and in most cases neither do you. Roughly 10 seconds will verify to a pretty good satisfaction that it's not.

We're not jack booted thugs trying to prove you're a criminal. We're the people YOU employ to catch bad guys and recover stolen property and evidence. If that ten second NCIC check of your gun made you "mad as hell" you'd be way over the edge if you understood the extent of the background checks and tests that I went through for the honor of working for you and having the responsibility to run those serial numbers.


Sgt Lumpy