Question on rifle cartridge reloading

[raljr1]

Just reloading my first batch of 30-06 cartridges. I have sorted all of my empties by manufacturer, and loaded up about 10 with a loading that a friend made for me years ago that proved accurate. 53.5 grains of 4350 behind 165 grain Hornady SSTs. I'll shoot those and if all goes well, I have a few hundred more to load.

My question has to do with case length. The book says 2.494 max length and 2.484 trimmed length. I checked them after sizing, and had about 2 boxes that were all at 2.490. I left those as it. Others that were over that, I trimmed back to the 2.484 length. in a few cases the trimmer cut them a couple thousandths of an inch shorter. Is that an issue? Also, how much variation in length is acceptable for general hunting or target practice load? is a few thousandths variation in length worth fussing over?

Thanks

 

[46er]

I probably run .010 variation in length on my 06's. Not a good idea to run them longer than factory specs unless you know for sure that the chamber is cut longer.

 

[muddocktor]

Those trimmed slightly shorter than the book minimum length shouldn't give you any problems, in my experience.

Are you loading for a bolt gun or a semi auto rifle? If a bolt gun, I would get a neck sizer die for reloading any cases shot through your rifle, as you will get much better case life by just neck sizing your brass once it's fire formed to your chamber.

 

[DWalt]

Unless you are planning to join the bench rest gang, shorter than minimum recommended case lengths will work OK for most any purpose and it won't harm anything. Longer than maximum recommended case lengths could cause chambering problems. Also (unless you are a bench rest shooter), using all the same headstamped cases and weight matching them doesn't buy you much in the way of performance improvement. But if it makes you feel better to segregate cases, then do it. The single most important factor (at least regarding ammunition reloading) in achieving the best grouping performance is finding the optimum seating depth for any specific bullet you are using in your specific rifle. It will vary for different rifles and bullets. e.g., a reload which groups very tightly in rifle A may group poorly in rifle B of the same caliber. Also every type and weight of bullet will require a different seating depth in the same rifle.

 

[STCM(SW)]

Those trimmed slightly shorter than the book minimum length shouldn't give you any problems, in my experience.

Are you loading for a bolt gun or a semi auto rifle? If a bolt gun, I would get a neck sizer die for reloading any cases shot through your rifle, as you will get much better case life by just neck sizing your brass once it's fire formed to your chamber.

That is right on!

 

[DWalt]

You do not really need a purpose made neck sizing die. Stopping a little short of a full resize in a FL die will work as well as a neck sizing die will. Also, neck sized cases still require periodic case neck trimming. The purpose of neck sizing is keeping the case body dimensions (and thereby keeping the headspace in the chamber at zero) identical shot after shot so that they always fit very precisely into your chamber without any slop. That practice works much better in bolt action rifles than in semiautos.

 

[rockquarry]

You do not really need a purpose made neck sizing die. Stopping a little short of a full resize in a FL die will work as well as a neck sizing die will. Also, neck sized cases still require periodic case neck trimming. The purpose of neck sizing is keeping the case body dimensions (and thereby keeping the headspace in the chamber at zero) identical shot after shot so that they always fit very precisely into your chamber without any slop. That practice works much better in bolt action rifles than in semiautos.

Much better advice than using a neck sizing die. Assuming you have a bolt-action rifle, your full-length size die is all you need for best brass life. Expounding a little on what DWalt recommended... Size brass just enough that the bolt closes with SLIGHT resistance. This is just a fraction short of full-length sizing.

After about four or five such sizings, the bolt closing will become more difficult and you will need to adjust the die to bump the shoulder a bit. Trial-and-error work; that may be a full-length sizing or may be just under a full-length sizing depending on the chamber, etc. Then go back to partial sizing. Good luck-

 

[DWalt]

When you feel a slight resistance to closing the bolt fully, you will know when you have zero headspace. Just keep your sizing die set to keep it the same after the first shot. The worst thing to do when reloading for a rifle having an oversized and over-long chamber is to do a maximum full length case resize. That works the brass too much and can lead to early failure. The best shooting .30-06 rifle I ever owned was one that had a slight negative headspace and I always had to use a little muscle in order to close the bolt. And it was a cheapie Mossberg Maverick bolt action. A so-so trigger but phenomenal grouping.

 

[IAM Rand]

Couple of things, when you are crimping the bullet, there may be issues with the different lengths. Being that it is not a great deal, you may be able to get away with it. Might be better to just trim all to the same length, even if it is shorter that recommended.

Also, it is more important the COL. The case should expand over multiple uses. The best way to get good accuracy is to use the measurements to the ojive. The necks may vary but, as long as you can get consistent length on you bullet you should be good.

 

[DWalt]

There is generally no need to crimp the case mouth into the bullet, except for use in a tubular magazine rifle. I don't trim brass except when it is longer than maximum. Say I have 50 fired cases. The first thing I do is measure each case with a caliper. If it is at maximum length or shorter, I leave it alone. If over maximum, I set it aside to trim it to minimum length.

 

[TheTinMan]

There is generally no need to crimp the case mouth into the bullet, except for use in a tubular magazine rifle. I don't trim brass except when it is longer than maximum. Say I have 50 fired cases. The first thing I do is measure each case with a caliper. If it is at maximum length or shorter, I leave it alone. If over maximum, I set it aside to trim it to minimum length.

Exactly. Except that I keep cases in batches. As soon as one case in a batch goes over the maximum length after re-sizing, I typically trim the entire batch to the "trim to" length.

I learned to hand load when neck sizing was gospel. Recently some very good competitive rifle shooters have been advocating full length re-sizing. Erik Cortina has at least 1 YouScrewed video on this topic. Personally I reload mostly for semi-auto rifles where you have to bump the shoulder back at least .003" every re-sizing.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Couple of things, when you are crimping the bullet, there may be issues with the different lengths. Being that it is not a great deal, you may be able to get away with it. Might be better to just trim all to the same length, even if it is shorter that recommended.

Also, it is more important the COL. The case should expand over multiple uses. The best way to get good accuracy is to use the measurements to the ojive. The necks may vary but, as long as you can get consistent length on you bullet you should be good.

I never crimp my rifle ammo.....Neck tension holds the bullet just fine.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have a 1903 30-06 bolt action, that I load with 52 - 57c grs of IMR 4350 powder.
It will swallow a 165 gr SP/BT bullet with a OAL of 3.34".

However, I do need to seat some of my 150-147 gr bullets a little shorter
due to their make ups.

 

[raljr1]

Ok, most of these will be shot out of my Remington 760. I also have dad's 721. I have checked the completed loads in the, and they chamber fine. I will check the 721 in the am. Based on what I read here, I have too heavy a crimp on the first batch. I wondered about that. Ok, ifnthencases are under max length after sizing, let them be. I'll size any that are over. I will batch them according to the length and try to keep variations under about .005...just because.

I have some LC brass for the Garand, but that will be loaded with 150gr to about 2600 fps. I have some brass marked WRA, and had a heck of a time seating primers in those. In fact the primer god sort of mashed going in. I tossed a few of those. I have a dozen more. Do I need to do something more on the military brass?

I appreciate the help.

Robert

 

[venomballistics]

It sounds to me like we have someone who hasn't read the manual to fully understand why we trim cases.
You obviously have one to be able to reference the data you have provided.
Now read through those first chapters to understand why we trim cases and how we develop loads.
I know, I know.... We'd all rather eat the fruit cake that's been regifted every Christmas since 1972, but you need to replace the magic with genuine knowledge in areas such as these.

 

[raljr1]

It sounds to me like we have someone who hasn't read the manual to fully understand why we trim cases.

You obviously have one to be able to reference the data you have provided.

Now read through those first chapters to understand why we trim cases and how we develop loads.

I know, I know.... We'd all rather eat the fruit cake that's been regifted every Christmas since 1972, but you need to replace the magic with genuine knowledge in areas such as these.

Not sure if your comment is directed at me or not. If it is, please educate me, that's why I'm here.

My intent is to have unifomity in my loaded rounds, without needlessly trimming cases. Even when I trim them, I am ending up with a couple thousandths of length variation. So my question revolved around whether case length or uniformity is more critical.

Robert

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

It sounds to me like we have someone who hasn't read the manual to fully understand why we trim cases.
You obviously have one to be able to reference the data you have provided.
Now read through those first chapters to understand why we trim cases and how we develop loads.
I know, I know.... We'd all rather eat the fruit cake that's been regifted every Christmas since 1972, but you need to replace the magic with genuine knowledge in areas such as these.

I love fresh fruit cake.......Had some Thanksgiving.

 

[rockquarry]

Not sure if your comment is directed at me or not. If it is, please educate me, that's why I'm here.

My intent is to have unifomity in my loaded rounds, without needlessly trimming cases. Even when I trim them, I am ending up with a couple thousandths of length variation. So my question revolved around whether case length or uniformity is more critical.

Robert

(I assume we're still on rifle brass here; I don't trim cases used in handguns.) I've always found slight variations in the length of cases following a trimming job.

However, I gauge all cases after sizing. Those that are under max. length, even if they're close to max length, don't get trimmed. Those cases over max. length are trimmed at approximately recommended trim length. As you can easily see, there is a lot of variation between newly trimmed cases and cases just under max. length in the same pile. I have a few accurate rifles and case length has never been a factor in assembling accurate loads.

Try this on your own: trim twenty cases to exactly the same length, load with a known accurate load and shoot four five-shot groups at 100 yards from a benchrest. Do the same with a batch of twenty cases with varying lengths. Advise if there is a difference in accuracy.

Don't crimp rifle cartridges unless they require a crimp for use in a certain type gun. If they require a crimp, cases must be trimmed to the same length for uniform results. I realize some handloaders claim a crimp promotes more complete combustion. I haven't seen this ever, but it's another test you can do yourself.

A crimp will seldom if ever contribute to an accuracy improvement. If the crimp is very light, the load may shoot as well as the uncrimped version, but it's very unlikely it will ever shoot better. Neck tension alone works fine.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Military brass typically has crimped primer pockets which need to be either reamed or swaged before repriming...

That's another part of case prep that needs to be reread (or, read?)...

Cheers!

 

[Rogeronimo]

FWIW ... Continually bumping the shoulder short of 'your' headspace will lead to casehead separation. Necksizing 'your' fireformed brass is generally accepted to kick that can down the road.

 

[lrrifleman]

@raljr1:

The WRA brass that is giving you problems when you seat primers probably had crimped primers, and the primer crimp needs to be removed. Don't trash that brass, you can sometimes remove the crimp with a reamer, or a primer pocket swager ( which I prefer).

You really don't want to swap cartridges between action styles. I suggest that you use one headstamp for gun A, another for gun B, and so on. I also won't shoot bolt gun reloads in a semi-auto or vice-versa, because every gun's chamber is different!

 

[rockquarry]

FWIW ... Continually bumping the shoulder short of 'your' headspace will lead to casehead separation. Necksizing 'your' fireformed brass is generally accepted to kick that can down the road.

I'm always eager to learn; if you've had personal experience in this area please describe (more than one incident). There can be an exception to any "rule" dependent on a variety of factors.

I've yet to see a case separation using the method I suggested. The brass will wear out long before you've bumped the shoulder too many times, if you can bump the shoulder too many times.

 

[Rogeronimo]

I'm always eager to learn; if you've had personal experience in this area please describe (more than one incident). There can be an exception to any "rule" dependent on a variety of factors.

I've yet to see a case separation using the method I suggested. The brass will wear out long before you've bumped the shoulder too many times, if you can bump the shoulder too many times.

Bumping the shoulder isn't in itself the issue ... excessive headspace creates the environment for casehead separation. . I'm not being argumentative, just adding to the virtues of avoiding full-length resizing brass that's been formed for a particular chamber. Yes, this is one reason neck-sized brass lasts longer.

Every opportunity the case has to move rearward toward the boltface with the shoulder pressed forward will thin the case above the web.

In summation, your procedure is spot on. Yes, if it won't go into battery, all other dimensions in spec, a slight bump is indeed required.

 

[Nevada Ed]

(I assume we're still on rifle brass here; I don't trim cases used in handguns.) I've always found slight variations in the length of cases following a trimming job.

However, I gauge all cases after sizing. Those that are under max. length, even if they're close to max length, don't get trimmed. Those cases over max. length are trimmed at approximately recommended trim length. As you can easily see, there is a lot of variation between newly trimmed cases and cases just under max. length in the same pile. I have a few accurate rifles and case length has never been a factor in assembling accurate loads.

Try this on your own: trim twenty cases to exactly the same length, load with a known accurate load and shoot four five-shot groups at 100 yards from a benchrest. Do the same with a batch of twenty cases with varying lengths. Advise if there is a difference in accuracy.

Don't crimp rifle cartridges unless they require a crimp for use in a certain type gun. If they require a crimp, cases must be trimmed to the same length for uniform results. I realize some handloaders claim a crimp promotes more complete combustion. I haven't seen this ever, but it's another test you can do yourself.

A crimp will seldom if ever contribute to an accuracy improvement. If the crimp is very light, the load may shoot as well as the uncrimped version, but it's very unlikely it will ever shoot better. Neck tension alone works fine.

.................

The only time I ever crimped a 30-06 reload, was when I loaded the 150 gr Remington Cor-Lokt SP that had a "Can" on it, for my deer hunting loads, to get maximum fps, with the powder, used.

95% of my bullets are "Smooth walled" or I don't crimp, if they have a "Can" on the bullet, usually a Hornady, bullet, to help the brass, last longer.

When my bolt starts to need more pressure to close, on a batch of cases, it is usually a sign that the case needs to be trimed or the shoulder, needs to be set back, after 4-5 target loads.

 

[muddocktor]

What Rogeronimo said. ^^^^^^ I've seen casehead separation personally with my 264 Mag, before I got myself a neck sizer die. And yes, after neck sizing for a while I do need to do a full sizing, pushing the shoulder back a little bit for for easy chambering. And also yes, even with neck sizing only, I still have to occasionally trim the brass back because it's gotten over max length, but much less. The reason I like a neck sizer die instead of just backing off my full sizing die is that way I never have to touch the adjustment ring on either die, just screw it into the press and get after it.

One other thing I have found with high pressure bottleneck cases is that annealing the case mouth occasionally helps tremendously with case life. My 264 Mag for example, brass is both hard to find and expensive. So I buy 7mm Rem Mag brass and run it through my 264 full size die and reform it (same case dimensions except for neck). Before starting to anneal my brass, the 7mm stuff would crack in the neck area after just a few reloadings. After annealing the brass, I get just as good a case life as with my 264 Mag brass. The resizing of the neck from 7mm to 6.5 mm was work hardening the neck area.

 

[Miracle Man]

Just reloading my first batch of 30-06 cartridges. I have sorted all of my empties by manufacturer, and loaded up about 10 with a loading that a friend made for me years ago that proved accurate. 53.5 grains of 4350 behind 165 grain Hornady SSTs. I'll shoot those and if all goes well, I have a few hundred more to load.

My question has to do with case length. The book says 2.494 max length and 2.484 trimmed length. I checked them after sizing, and had about 2 boxes that were all at 2.490. I left those as it. Others that were over that, I trimmed back to the 2.484 length. in a few cases the trimmer cut them a couple thousandths of an inch shorter. Is that an issue? Also, how much variation in length is acceptable for general hunting or target practice load? is a few thousandths variation in length worth fussing over?

Thanks

Raljr,

You can get way off in the weeds reloading HP rifle cartridges for a bolt gun. Tons of gadgets, tons of time involved, and a lot of money.

As far as case length goes. Be worried about cases that are too long. That can and will cause dangerous pressure. The strength and camming action of the bolt will actually pin the case mouth into the chamber/throat and the bullet has a hard time exiting the chamber! Pressure will spike!

Short cases, as long as they're not crazy short, aren't a problem. 2.480 or something in there, you'll be fine.

And by the way. I've shot a ton of 30-06 with dozens of different bullets and dozens of powders. And IMR 4350 wins the accuracy competition hands down in a bunch of rifles including mine.

 

[venomballistics]

Not sure if your comment is directed at me or not. If it is, please educate me, that's why I'm here.

My intent is to have unifomity in my loaded rounds, without needlessly trimming cases. Even when I trim them, I am ending up with a couple thousandths of length variation. So my question revolved around whether case length or uniformity is more critical.

Robert

The purpose of trimming is to avoid a high pressure situation caused by the case mouth getting pinned between the bullet and the end of the chamber. Your runout is of little consequence in your intended roles. it just has to avoid the pressure issue.

in my own experience with the same cartridge, I had developed a subsonic load using a cast lead bullet. Powder choice was a little "off the reservation"
Brass was mixed and only trimmed if needed. some might have called it junk
My results were 1050 fps with an extreme velocity spread of 13 and a single digit standard deviation.
this was benchrest competition kind of figures out of a plinking round.
The components you choose and the development work mean more.

 

[smoothshooter]

Unless you are planning to join the bench rest gang, shorter than minimum recommended case lengths will work OK for most any purpose and it won't harm anything. Longer than maximum recommended case lengths could cause chambering problems. Also (unless you are a bench rest shooter), using all the same headstamped cases and weight matching them doesn't buy you much in the way of performance improvement. But if it makes you feel better to segregate cases, then do it. The single most important factor (at least regarding ammunition reloading) in achieving the best grouping performance is finding the optimum seating depth for any specific bullet you are using in your specific rifle. It will vary for different rifles and bullets. e.g., a reload which groups very tightly in rifle A may group poorly in rifle B of the same caliber. Also every type and weight of bullet will require a different seating depth in the same rifle.

It is sometimes amazing how much difference seating depth can make in group sizes. Even a quarter turn of the bullet seater threaded stem one way or another can shrink or open up group sizes 30 to 50 percent.
Optimum depth will vary from gun to gun, and even load to load.

 

[rockquarry]

It is sometimes amazing how much difference seating depth can make in group sizes. Even a quarter turn of the bullet seater threaded stem one way or another can shrink or open up group sizes 30 to 50 percent.
Optimum depth will vary from gun to gun, and even load to load.

Hard to imagine anyone not experimenting with seating depth. Usually trying three depths will give you the the best one but sometimes it takes a little more work.

 

[Tim Stapp]

In my .308 match bolt action rifle that my uncle built with a minimum to SAAMI spec chamber, I found that brass length was extremely important as was full length sizing. Because it is chambered to minimum specifications, full length sizing was basically neck sizing with a slight bump on the shoulder.


With a Sierra 168 Match bullet, the rifle was capable of MOA accuracy at the 600 yard firing line (I'm not capable, but my buddy was). Using my rifle, my ammo: he beat my 17 10 or X's. He shot a clean 200 with MY RIFLE AND MY AMMO!!!


Bottom line is this: Consistancy is key to accuracy.