Quick: What Was the Spec. on WWII .38 Special?

[dogsoldier]

I sold the (2) boxes of .38 Special tracers from WWII that I had for $100/box (2) weeks ago at the B'ham gun show.

 

[Texas Star]

From the April 1946 edition of the American Rifleman, page 18 comes the following information. The author is Edwards Brown Jr.

Cartridge Caliber .38 Special
"This ammunition is loaded with a 158 gr. bullet having a steel bullet jacket. This jacket has a .0008-inch copper plating on the outside. The cartridge case is the standard caliber .38 S&W Special product.
"... it was necessary to produce jacketed caliber .38 ammunition when reports revealed that enemy officers in the field were ruling that lead bullets were contrary to international law. This placed men so armed in danger of being shot if captured.
"I was present at Springfield Army in May of 1943 when one of the first production lots of steel-jacketed caliber .38 Special ammunition was tested.
"3,650 rounds were fired through each of two revolvers -- an S&W Victory Model and a Colt Commando. Approximately half were fired double-action ...
"Both revolvers withstood the endurance test without a malfunction. The thumbpiece screw was tightened on the S&W at 354 rounds and the side plate screw of the Colt was tightened as 912 rounds.
"These were the only adjustments necessary and a careful examination of both revolvers at the end of the test showed nothing but normal wear.
"Tests were also conducted to determine the effects that jacketed ammunition would have on misaligned cylinders and barrels.
"... 500 rounds were fired in each revolver from the cylinder that was .030 inch out of alignment, with no damage to either revolver.
"I don't think you have much to worry about in this jacketed ammunition."

The author of the above did not give powder type, charges or velocity of the above load.

I believe the 130 gr. full metal jacket load dates to the 1950s. I carried it as a U.S. Air Force Security Policeman (1974 to 1979). It was all we knew.

The March 1982 American Rifleman, page 68, notes:

The M41 130 gr. full metal jacket load is loaded to standard velocity and pressure (16,000 psi maximum and about 750 fps from a 4" barrel).
This velocity is about the minimum which will expel a bullet from a revolver bore. It is not advised to use this ammunition in pistols with barrels longer than 4", the American Rifleman notes.

The Air Force developed and issued the PGU-12/B load, which is the same 130 gr. full metal jacket bullet loaded deeply into the case.
This is a +P load and should not be used in revolvers not rated for +P.
This load delivers about 950 to 980 fps from a 4" barrel.
The Air Force was the only service to adopt and issue this PGU-12/B ammunition. The Army tested it but declined to use it because it shortened the service life of its revolvers.

Okay ... okay ... more than you wanted to know but since I found the information so easily I thought I'd pass it along.

To answer your original question, the 130 gr. full metal jacket load would be an anachronism in a World War II display.
However, finding WWII .38 Special ammo may be difficult. I have one sample in my collection, a tracer round.
Yes, tracer rounds were issued to flight crews who carried .38 Special revolvers, chiefly Navy personnel but some Army Air Corps carried them as well when 1911s were scarce early in the war.
The tracer rounds were intended chiefly for signalling, rather like a distress flare.

The .38 Special revolver is rarely used in military service today. Pity. The Smith & Wesson Combat Masterpiece Model 15 I carried was a magnificent belt gun: light, accurate, easily maintained and utterly reliable.
It was, alas, hampered by the weak loads issued to us.
If we had been allowed to carry a 150 gr. jacketed semi wadcutter at 900 to 950 fps, it would have been a much better sidearm.

There must be warehouses full of Model 15s somewhere. I hope they haven't been destroyed. They would still make an excellent weapon for government security guards, investigators and aircrews in non-combat areas.
The S&W M-15 revolver with a decently powerful load, and a handful of shotshells and tracers, would be a good survival gun -- better than the 9mm or .45 in my estimation.

Gatofeo-

I just want to note that the Edwards Brown, Jr. you quoted is the "Pete" Brown who was for years the gun editor at, "Sports Afield." I think his info was quite valid. Until I read your post, I didn't know that WW II jackets were steel under the plating.

Of course, the Germans objected prior to WW II about the British using lead bullets in their .38-200 guns, resulting in them having to load 178 grain jacketed ammo that was underpowered. I honestly wonder if they remembered to increase the powder charge to overcome the added drag in the bore of the jacketed bullets. Or, maybe some lots were just underloaded. Loading the lighter bullet wasn't enough to keep velocity much beyond that requred to get the bullet out the barrel! No wonder that Churchill insisted on .45 autos for his newly formed Commando units, or that paratroops and Commandos often had .45's or 9mm Brownings late in the war.

 

[Gatofeo]

Danggggg ... love to get the whole lot of you together around a table, with a big pot of chili and plenty of Stella Artois beer. We couldn't do any shooting, of course, but imagine the fine conversation!
A very interesting thread. I'm glad I took the time to dig into my old American Rifleman magazines, because it prompted so many memories from the rest of you.

 

[mkk41]

Cases are headstamped WCC 60.

From Wiki.

During World War II, some U.S. aircrew (primarily Navy and Marine Corps) were issued .38 Special S&W Victory revolvers as sidearms in the event of a forced landing. In May 1943, a new .38 Special cartridge with a 158-grain, full steel jacketed, copper flash-coated bullet meeting the requirements of the rules of land warfare was developed at Springfield Armory and adopted for the Smith & Wesson revolvers.[18] The new military .38 Special loading propelled its 158-grain bullet at a standard 850 ft/s (260 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[18] During the war, many U.S. naval and marine aircrew were also issued red-tipped .38 Special tracer rounds using either a 120-grain or 158-grain bullet for emergency signaling purposes.[18]

In 1956, the U.S. Air Force adopted the Cartridge, Caliber .38, Ball M41, a military variant of the .38 Special cartridge designed to conform to the rules of land warfare. The original .38 M41 ball cartridge used a 130-grain full metal jacketed bullet, and was loaded to an average pressure of only 13,000 psi, giving a muzzle velocity of approximately 725 ft/s (221 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) barrel.[19][20] This ammunition was intended to prolong the life of S&W M12 and Colt Aircrewman revolvers equipped with aluminum cylinders and frames, which were prone to stress fractures when fired with standard .38 ammunition. By 1961, a slightly revised M41 .38 cartridge specification known as the Cartridge, Caliber .38 Ball, Special, M41 had been adopted for U.S. armed forces using .38 Special caliber handguns.[20] The new M41 Special cartridge used a 130-grain FMJ bullet loaded to a maximum allowable pressure of 16,000 psi for a velocity of approximately 950 ft/s (290 m/s) in a solid 6-inch (150 mm) test barrel, and about 750 ft/s (230 m/s) from a 4-inch (100 mm) revolver barrel.[21][22] The M41 ball cartridge was first used in .38 revolvers carried by USAF aircrew and Strategic Air Command security police, and by 1961 was in use by the U.S. Army for security police, dog handlers, and other personnel equipped with .38 Special caliber revolvers.[22] A variant of the standard M41 cartridge with a semi-pointed, unjacketed lead bullet was later adopted for CONUS (Continental United States) police and security personnel.[20]

 

[DWalt]

I think you should now know about everything needed. Basically, if you can find any .38 Special cartridge having a jacketed RN bullet, not one in a million (or more) viewers would know if it was used during WWII or not. Flyers had tracer ammo, mainly for signalling purposes in case their planes were shot down. There are some interesting stories about the M41 round. Originally, it was fairly easy for USAF security cops to pull the bullets, and dump some extra powder into a case and replace the bullet in order to get a "Hotter" load. Sometimes much too hot, damaging or destroying the revolver when fired. The later (and more powerful) USAF PGU-12/B load specified a much higher bullet pull value in order to stop that practice. I think as someone else mentioned, during WWII, .38 Special ammunition was typically issued in commercial boxes and using commercial headstamps for military use.

 

[Texas Star]

For what it's worth, had I been assigned to Vietnam, I'd have tried to take commercial jacketed 150 grain .38 ammo. It'd meet Hague Accords standards and be quite a bit hotter than the M-41 round.

I never fired any of that bought off-base in Denver, although we carried it. I think the boxes were marked as High Velocity, and it may well have been the .38-44 load.

Cases were nickled, a boon in tropical climates.

I asked S&W about firing .38-44 ammo in K-Frames and was told that it was safe, but would produce added wear and recoil. They strongly suggested that I buy a .38-44 or .357 if I planned to fire that ammo much. Of course, I was planning to fire a box or three, so I wasn't too concerned.

I never saw anyone in the USAF pull bullets and add powder to M-41 ammo. I think I was the only one in my units who knew or cared much about ammunition. Very few men were gun enthusists, other than some hunters, and they were more concerned with rifles and shotguns for game. The marksmanship training people did know more about guns.

When I qualified with the .45 auto, most of my companions were astounded that the gun would shoot that well. Most were pretty recoil sensitive. I also owned a personal former Lend-Lease M-1911A-1, but couldn't wear it on duty. I posted above about my later Gold Cup.

I'm quite sure that there were many other "gun people" in the USAF then. I just didn't meet many. Visiting Navy aircrew still carried the Victory Model. Don't know what ammo they had.

Many of our pilots going to SE Asia provided their own sidearms. Commissioned officers could then still do that. I saw letters from some in the gun titles. Most seemed to favor the .45 auto or the S&W M-19. Stephen Coonts, the thriller writer, had his hero carry a M-19 in Vietnam days, sometimes later. (Admiral Jake Grafton.) I strongly suspect that Coonts also wore the S&W M-19 when he was a A-6 pilot in Vietnam. That's where he got the background data for his books, like, "Flight of the Intruder."

It is interesting to speculate about what ammo these pilots had for their own guns. Woudn't be surprised if many carried commercial .357 Magnum loads.

Oh: I saw .22 Hornet ammo for use in the M-4 and M-6 survival arms carried in some parachute seat packs. That ammo was softpoint and clearly labled as being solely for survival use, and not to be used against enemy personnel.

I wouldn't voluntarily shoot even a rabbit with the weak M-41 Ball .38 ammo. Elmer Keith and many others have commented on how much more effective flatpoint bullets are on game.

 

[DWalt]

This is a direct quote excerpted from the Lake City AAP Product Manual concerning the USAF PGU-12/B cartridge.

"...The PGU-12/B cartridge was designed to have a very high bullet pull value (note: The bullet was very tightly crimped using a case cannelure). This was done to prevent tampering with the cartridge after several incidents with M41 cartridges involving removal of bullets, doubling of powder charges, and replacement of bullets. When fired in a standard (M15) revolver, the tampered cartridges would sometimes cause damage to the revolver and injury to the person firing it."

This was the only time Lake City AAP ever manufactured a .38 Special cartridge, or indeed any pistol cartridge, producing about 72 million of them in 1979-80 (although at least one lot was known to have been produced in late 1978). Velocity specification was 1100 to 1175 ft/sec, with peak chamber pressure of 20,000 psi. The nominal FMJ bullet weight was 130 grains, the same as the M41.

Yes indeed, powder doubling of the M41 powder charge did occur in the USAF. I have personally known several former USAF cops and CATM personnel who were present when such incidents happened. It may have occurred in other services also, I just don't know about any.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Necro Post ! But this thread is a top result in searches about WWII .38 Special , so I'll add some additional .

My late FIL was USMC MP during WWII ( state side ) . They were issued .38 Special . He carried S&W Victory . Don't know if only S&W were used , or if he manuevered to always use one because he preferred them ( he was knowledgeable shooter and hunter before his service ) .

He used them in several Duty shootings, generally with favorable , or at least expected results , with one exception .

He had occasion to shoot at a car moving away from him . He was aimed at the back of driver's head . The bullet penetrated the rear window , but had been deflected enough that it instead pass just outside the driver's ear .

It's my understanding that state side Mil LE and defense plant gaurds used 158 RNL , but I didn't think to directly ask him , and he passed 1993 @ 76yo .

 

[Greyman50]

Here’s info for small arms ammo, 1945. No 38 Spl is mentioned or shown. Last is from “Cartridges of the World”, 3 rd edition.

 

[Gripgrabber]

Good information, I have a partial box box of us 38 tracer ammo.
I didn’t realize how rare it is. I’ll post a picture of the box later.
Semper paratus

 

[Don89044]

Gatofeo,
I was in the 3415th from Jan 1973-October 1976. I would have drawn my weapons from you in 76.
I was envious of you guys with all those weapons in that little room.
It is good to know some of us from those days are still out here kicking around.
Stay safe!

 

[ironhead7544]

I was in the Army from 1969 to 1972 as a Small Arms Repairman 45B20. The various military organizations were using the 38 Special S&W and Colt revolvers. The ammo was the above 158 gr FMJ loaded to 850 fps as indicated on the box.

Later, 1979 to 1982 I was in the I.L.A.N.G. as Security Police on the SAC base at O'Hare. We used the M15 with the 130 gr load. It was very mild and rumor had it that a bullet would stick in the barrel sometimes. I never saw that. Then we got new ammo with the pushed in bullet and star crimp. I would guess it ran at least 1000 fps and I was at least a bit more confident of it. The bullet was down almost to the tip in the case. The original load was supposed to be 3.5 grs Bullseye with what I think was the .356 38 Super 130 gr RN bullet. With the bullet down that far they may have kept the same powder charge but may have had to reduce it.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Here’s a well known Gyrene in Korea.
Most likely carrying the same type Revolver and ammo he carried in WWII.
He is visiting the AF after surviving a Fire Ball Crash Landing.

 

[DWalt]

According to Pate's U.S. Handguns of World War II:The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers, the correct era ammo was the Remington 158 gr, lead core, copper plated steel jacketed ammo. Head stamps were REM UMC .38 SPL. Several large contracts were issued to Remington during the war. The packaging was the commercial green box Kleanbore label. Pate shows some on page 311. I bought some at a local show a couple of years ago. The box is a bit tattered but this is the stuff.

That is exactly the military ball round used during WWII. I have two boxes that are in slightly better condition in my collection, but still ratty. It was packed in a commercial-style box, but labeled as having a steel jacket. NOTE - there was no index number printed in the lower right-hand corner of the commercial box as was typical of Remington's contemporary commercial ammunition of other types. There was no specific military nomenclature adopted for that round such as Mxx. The only other .38 Special military issue round used during WWII was a red tracer which had a red-tipped bullet. Examples of the tracer round are somewhat difficult to find, but they came packed in a white box. The idea was that they could convert the revolver into an emergency signaling device for use by downed Naval aircraft flight crews, not for shooting at the enemy. There was some postwar experimentation into developing trace colors other than red, but I do not believe that any of them ever went into military service.

Back around 8-10 years ago, there was an extensive article about the .38 Special military rounds used during WWII published in the Journal of the International Ammunition Association (IAA), but the IAA circulates journals only to its paid members. I abstracted and posted relevant parts of that article on this forum but got dinged for it as being an improper use of copyrighted material, so it was taken down.

 

[71vette]

I’m reviving this thread as it’s just so good. I searched for WW2 38 Special ammunition and this thread popped up.

Thanks everyone who posted. Truly one of the better forums on the internet!

 

[DWalt]

One obscure point about the Remington WWII .38 Special 158 grain FMJ loads. While the case headstamp appears to be commercial, it is not. Commercial headstamps used “REM-UMC”. The military loads used “REM UMC”. No dash.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

As the risk of a repeat-misfire-
My Old Navy Buddy Frank told me - in the S Pacific during WWII, they would remove just enough Cosmoline from their revolvers so you could rotate the cylinder and see through the barrel.
Cause when they got shot down, it was saltwater bathing time!
He did get shot down.

 

[BoulderTroll]

I’m reviving this thread as it’s just so good. I searched for WW2 38 Special ammunition and this thread popped up.

Thanks everyone who posted. Truly one of the better forums on the internet!

I'm just getting a kick out of how many times it's been necroposted. It began in 2009, then was revived in 2012, then again in 2022, and now in 2025. So to whoever brings this back in 2028, I hope you guys still have internet and that the mushroom clouds have all cleared.

 

[larryofcc]

Here's a box with a 1944 Maritime Victory. Big Larry

 

[71vette]

I know the specs of the 158gr FMJ load is supposed to be 850fps, but does anybody actually know what it does out of a 4 inch barrel? A jacketed 158 getting to 850 out of a 4 inch would be reasonably hot.