Range report - 148 grain, .38 spec loads

[elpac3]

Did some range test firing this past weekend with some 148 grain, .38 loads. Tested 3 bullets in 4 configurations.

The bullets were:

Hornaday 148 grain hollow base wadcutter sized to .358"
Rim Rock 148 grain double ended wadcutter sized to .358"
Rim Rock 148 grain semi wadcutter sized to .358"

Bullet lengths were:

Hornaday HBWC = .630"
Rim Rock DEWC = .572" (.475" to the crimp groove)
Rim Rock SWC = .358" to the crimp groove

All bullets were loaded on Federal .38 special brass cases, loaded with 2.8 grains of Bullseye powder.

Test firing was done at a 50 foot target from a bench with a S&W model 14-3, 6" barrel with a Bomar rib and chronographed with a magneto speed chronograph.

Results were:

Hornaday HBWC, case mouth flush, taper crimp = 804 fps
Rim Rock DEWC, case mouth flush, taper crimp = 839 fps
Rim Rock DEWC, crimped in crimp groove = 785 fps
Rim Rock, SWC crimped in crimp groove = 742 fps

Group sizes measured:

Hornaday HBWC, flush seated = .73"
RR DEWC flush seated = 1.6"
RR DEWC crimped in crimp groove = .9"
RR SWC crimped in crimp groove = .75"

Velocities varied as the case volume changed with the bullet seating depth as would be expected. The DEWC seated case mouth flush provided the smallest case volume which in turn provided the highest velocity while the SWC provided the greatest case volume and produced the lowest velocity.

The take aways were:

1. Not all 148 grain wad cutter bullets will produce the same velocity given the same powder charge (expeced since the HBWC provides for a larger case volume when seated than the DEWC when seated)
2. Seating depth has a marked influence on velocity (and like wise on pressure - although pressure was not measured)
3. Shooting with a chronograph adds a whole new dimension to reloading and load development

 

[venomballistics]

Blanks .... not particularly useful,but fun none the less

 

[rwsmith]

Good deal....

This supports the idea that HBWC are inherently more accurate because they expand to fit the bore of the gun. Surprisingly the SWCs are pretty close.

 

[Squarebutt]

Thanks for the report. A chrono is on my Christmas list. One question, unless I missed it: what gun and barrel length?

 

[elpac3]

Sorry about that - I was shooting my old PPC revolver, a model 14-3, 6" with a Bomar rib, Hogue monogrips and a Felix action job.

 

[Forrest r]

These old ppc pistols are the cat's meow when their paired with target loads/hbwc's. I cast my own 148g hbwc's for the 38spl's specifically for a ppc'd s&w. Add some federal match primers & 3.0g of am select and it's off to the races.



The am select delivers more hp (horse power) than bullseye while creating less pressure to the tune of 15fps to 20fps more velocity with 1000psi less pressure. (2.8g of bullseye vs 3.0g am select)

As far as accuracy or inherent goes, it isn't so much that the hb bullets are inherently more accurate. It's that they are more forgiving and allow the reloader a wider range of loads (sweet spot) that are accurate. Hence, when you find the pressure that a hb bullet performs best at. Almost any powder will work for a load as long as it is:
1. Loaded to that pressure
2. burns efficiently/consistently at those pressures

 

[AveragEd]

If you load rifle ammo for accuracy, you will feel like you were flying blindly before you got your first chronograph. For example, you test-fire a recipe that prints a group that is larger than you want. There are three reasons that can happen - weather conditions, shooter error or a powder/bullet combo that just aren't compatible with your barrel's harmonics. You can't do much about weather except try again on a better day but chronograph numbers can help eliminate the other variables.

As a rule (but not one set in stone), smaller velocity variations between shots should (but don't always) yield smaller groups. If your numbers are good, you may have done something with your eye or finger to open the group and the load deserves a reshoot. If the numbers are bad, it's likely that the load in question is not going to do well in your rifle and further experimentation with it will be a waste of components, time and barrel wear.

Now for the caveat. I have had several recipes yield not-so-good deviation numbers yet punch miniscule groups. A Remington Model 700VLS in 6mmREM really stands out in my memory. I expected great things from that rifle but my best repeatable group was .505" at 100 yards. The muzzle velocity was 3,736fps with a nice deviation of 15fps using RE15 powder and the Berger 69-grain High BC flat-base varmint bullet. But when I tried Varget powder under the same bullet, it put them all in the same ragged hole at 3,710fps - with a deviation of 107fps!

Logic says that shouldn't happen but do enough load development and it will happen to you, too.

All barrels are laws unto themselves but in general, chronographs can be a real aid in load development. You don't have to spring for a super-expensive chronograph, either. I've been there and done that - twice - and both times, went back to one of the hundred-dollar ProChronos. They may not be as precise as the "better" ones but they always work, something that can't be said for the ones with "better" photocells that are super-sensitive to lighting conditions and don't work unless the sunlight angle is just right.

Ed

 

[Krogen]

Thanks for the report. I shoot Hornady 148 gr HBWC with 2.7 gr of Bullseye in my model 14. Let's just say I'm not equipment limited with that setup! Sure points out my successes and failures.

I also have a Magnetospeed. I definitely changes point of impact with a rifle. I haven't seen grouping changes though - with rifles. I have to wonder if it would change group sizes with handguns. Most certainly it will change point of impact.

How many shots in your groups? And how many groups did you fire?

 

[Nevada Ed]

I like both the HB and BB in the 148gr bullet for my 38's.
I do like the fact that the BB will work either way but....

I did have one company where one end with a seam from
the mold did have a little more height than the other end
and I crimped this end of the bullet, since it shot better, that way.

 

[H Richard]

Regarding your 6mm loads. I have had the same success with Varget in both a .243 Savage HB Varmint, and 2 different Rem. 700 VS in 22-250, not necessarily a very small SD, but a consistent teeny groups. My advice, ignore the chrono and watch the groups.

 

[elpac3]

Great PPC revolver - looks like it could be the twin to mine.

Shot 5 shot groups x 2 with each load. Also did several loads with the .357 4" model 19 and .44 4" model 29 and .45 6 1/2" 1955/45 that day as well.

Couldn't get the magneto speed to work on the short barrel revolvers - used the old conventional sky screens for those numbers.

 

[jirik]

These old ppc pistols are the cat's meow when their paired with target loads/hbwc's. I cast my own 148g hbwc's for the 38spl's specifically for a ppc'd s&w. Add some federal match primers & 3.0g of am select and it's off to the races.



The am select delivers more hp (horse power) than bullseye while creating less pressure to the tune of 15fps to 20fps more velocity with 1000psi less pressure. (2.8g of bullseye vs 3.0g am select)

As far as accuracy or inherent goes, it isn't so much that the hb bullets are inherently more accurate. It's that they are more forgiving and allow the reloader a wider range of loads (sweet spot) that are accurate. Hence, when you find the pressure that a hb bullet performs best at. Almost any powder will work for a load as long as it is:
1. Loaded to that pressure
2. burns efficiently/consistently at those pressures

Good looking setup! Where did you buy that hbwc mold?

 

[just jim]

I have noticed since the public has gone more to semi autos that I don't see wad cutters in the reloading areas of the store. This is a big loss as people have no idea how straight the wad cutters shoot.

 

[Forrest r]

Good looking setup! Where did you buy that hbwc mold?

That's a Mihec mold, he made them for the 32cal/38cal/41cal/44cal/45cal..

 

[mtgianni]

Did some range test firing this past weekend with some 148 grain, .38 loads. Tested 3 bullets in 4 configurations.

The bullets were:

Hornaday 148 grain hollow base wadcutter sized to .358"
Rim Rock 148 grain double ended wadcutter sized to .358"
Rim Rock 148 grain semi wadcutter sized to .358"

Are you saying that you ran these through a sizing die or that this is the factory stated size?

 

[elpac3]

All bullets measured .358 from the factory.

 

[walnutred]

This supports the idea that HBWC are inherently more accurate because they expand to fit the bore of the gun. Surprisingly the SWCs are pretty close.

I suspect that accuracy is because the expand to fill the chamber mouths, not the bore.

 

[elpac3]

Way back in the day (Late 1950's, early 1960's) bullseye shooters (where revolvers ruled the firing line) who did their own casting used to really like the 148 grain SWC for a 50 yard bullet as it proved to be more accurate than the 148 grain WC.

Looking at the SWC design, it has a far superior form factor to the WC. Some studies have suggested that up to 30% of teh WC rounds show some signs of tipping or keyholeing at 50 yards.

Now I know ther will be shooters who swear they have shot one inch groups at 100 yards off hand with their two inch revolver stoked with WC and no issues - - - -

Now that said, the option when shooting the S&W 52 is either case mouth flush HBWC with a taper crimp or case mouth flush WC with a taper crimp and you will turn in very respectable 50 yard groups (given the shooter does his part).

My personal preference for PPC shooting is still the 148 SWC as I find speed loading a bit easier with the SWC vs the WC. My second choice wold go to the WC seated tot eh crimp groove with a roll crimp as I have found that speed loads well and provides good accuracy.

 

[Forrest r]

Allot of the so called "accuracy" from wc's @ 50yds had more to do with the bbl's rate of twist than anything else. The old colt vs s&w thing/colt 1 in 14 vs 1 in 18 3/4. The colt's slower twist was better with the long bodied wc's and the s&w's actions/triggers were easier to tune.

Most of the ppc bbl's were 1 in 16.

The best bullets I've cast/found/used in the ppc's are the bullets in the center of the picture.



Those are 150g hollow base field nosed bullets. Those are extremely accurate & do extremely well in speed loaders.

More custom revolvers where the wc's/hbwc's really shine.



Those are heavy shrouded dw's with muzzle breaks and custom 1 in 10 twist bbl's. The 4" bbl'd dw weighs the same as my 6" 586 and those muzzle breaks are the cat's meow with full house 357 loads. The 1 in 10 twist bbl's eat loooonnnnggggg bodied bullets (wc's/hbwc's) like they are candy.

Another loooonnnnnggggg bodied bullet (145g) to test/run in the ppc pistol & the custom dw's. Was going to start testing these in the 357's 1st with full house loads of power pistol, 2400 & mp300. Gotta love those muzzle breaks.



At the end of the day it comes down to matching the bbl twist to the bullet. Hence, fast twist (1 in 18 3/4) ='s short bodied bullets (swc's)/slow twist (1 in 14/1 in 10) long bodied bullets (wc's/hbwc's).

 

[Forrest r]

WOW!!! Too early in the morning on that last post.

Colts/dw custom bbl's ='s fast twist

s&w ='s slow twist