re-loads- accuracy question

Harley Fan

Harley Fan

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I have an accuracy question (possibly a dumb one) to ask...

I've re-loaded perhaps 400 to 500 rounds of .38 Special ammo with a Lee loader. Yup. The one you peck at with a plastic hammer.

Much of my loading and load testing has been to insure consistancy. I'm using IMR-PB powder- 4.7 gr. with a 125 gr. semi-flat bullet, COL height 1.455. I've worked up to this powder charge (which the book says is a little hotter than the 4.1 to 4.4 gr. load) to get to a "feel" of being the same as a box target-load 130 gr. ball ammo.

I'm going to the range tomorrow, and I want to now try an accuracy comparison. Now, I'm new to shooting, but there is provision in the range lane box for a padded barrel steady rest. I'll be shooting the comparisons between factory Remington 130 gr, and my reloads, using my S&W 686-2 4" .357.

From my last visit, it seemed to me that at 10 yards, I wasn't grouping the re-loads as well as a couple cylinders-worth of factory. I didn't pay too much attention at the time, I was all about loading consistancy.

~~

Is there a difference? It seems to me that the bullets I loaded (.357" dia.) all go into the same forcing cone, and out the same barrel as the factory Federals. I just mic'd a few of these and the bullet dia. was .358"

Is there a difference?
 
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there can be .. handloading is all about coaxing the planets into alignment. Some loads just plain suck.
another thing that sometimes happens is a matter of faith in your work.
Your happy you still have your face after the first test load and don't really care about much else at that point ... somewhere in the back of your mind lives this thought that your ammo might not be as good as factory... a shred of doubt... As a result, you put less care into shooting it.
That one got me a few times in the past. give your stuff an honest shot ... always
 
You are a new reloader I take it. Give it some time. One of the first things I learned is respect for factor loads. They are consistent and dependable. I started with a Lee loader too. in 1985. At that time I got $50.00 for christmas and that bought me my first Lee press. I have been moving up since. I now have a dillon and an RCBS O press.

You say these are 38s with an over maximum charge. Keep it safe, use 357 brass and data if you are loading for a 357. If its not in the manual, don't do it.

Otherwise, there is no satisfaction like handloads. I have guns that have shot tens of thousands of handloads and not one box of factory. I found I could load more rounds for less money. This gave me more time to shoot which made me a better shot.

Have fun
 
I started my own reloading journey circa 1980. No prior experience, jumped into the Dillon 450/then updated 550, making 44 mag loads for the 200 yard rams.

Learning how to discern the difference between your loads & your actual shooting skills, really DOES take appreciation for 'coaxing the planets into alignment'.

After you put a couple pick up loads of lead downrange, you'll be better able to tell which planet wasn't quite coaxed enough.

Cheers on your new discipline!

'Reloading' is to 'shooting' as 'fly tying' is to 'fly fishing'.

It's better to regard the virtues and demands of each as being no more and no less variable than you are on a given day.

The place I found the absolute largest amount of variation in any reloading, was not the components and not the firearm. It was my own performance at a given time.
 
There is no such thing as a dumb question when it comes to reloading (well maybe, but yours is not). As David said, don't worry about what you use to reload with, I started out similar and have eventually moved up to a Hornady ammo plant and an RCBS rock chucker along with too many accessories to think about.

To your question, first of all do be careful moving above what books list as max. If you start at the min or middle of what the book lists and there are no signs of pressure or heavy recoil, you could very cautiously inch up from there, but that is very much an at your own risk scenario. Your reloads accuracy being less than the factory could be true or it just could have been human error and letting a few get away from you, just shoot some more of them to figure out a better average.

All guns are different, but in general, my experience has been that hotter loads with max pressures and extreme velocities are less accurate than just under max pressures. This could be that the gun likes a little under max or it could be the shooter doesn't like max recoil and flinches. If you shoot more and the accuracy isn't there, try toning the charge down a little.

Reloading is fun, rewarding, and a great hobby, enjoy it.
 
The factory 130gr should be a JHP.......... .357dia. but there may be a 130gr lead out there ?

"a 125 gr. semi-flat bullet"..........
What? Lead, JHP, plated?
That 125gr can be .357 or .358 +/- ..............

Some guns like .357 jackets and others shoot .358 lead better or it can be the FPS that turns your gun on.

Just keep shooting and you will see what you and the gun likes in time.
You are shooting with the barrel "OFF" and not touching the rest..........right?

Good shooting.
 
I'm using IMR-PB powder- 4.7 gr. with a 125 gr. semi-flat bullet, COL height 1.455. I've worked up to this powder charge (which the book says is a little hotter than the 4.1 to 4.4 gr. load) to get to a "feel" of being the same as a box target-load 130 gr. ball ammo.
Click to expand...

No offense intended, I'm going to talk to you the way I would to one of my students.
Never mind the accuracy, why are you loading hotter loads than the maximum listed in the IMR loading manual? I hope you are using an accurate scale, because if you are using the Lee dippers or any other volumetric measure without checking with a scale, you have no way of knowing what charge you are using.
If you are not using a scale, that should be your first purchase.

FYI, with .38 special, the first sign you get of an overload may be the topstrap of the revolver hitting the ceiling. The usual pressure signs of a 60,000 PSI rifle load simply don't show in .38 special until it is too late.
 
Thanks to all for the comments. My bullet is a 125 grain plated semi-flat.

OKFC05 said:
No offense intended, I'm going to talk to you the way I would to one of my students.
Never mind the accuracy, why are you loading hotter loads than the maximum listed in the IMR loading manual? I hope you are using an accurate scale, because if you are using the Lee dippers or any other volumetric measure without checking with a scale, you have no way of knowing what charge you are using.
If you are not using a scale, that should be your first purchase.

FYI, with .38 special, the first sign you get of an overload may be the topstrap of the revolver hitting the ceiling. The usual pressure signs of a 60,000 PSI rifle load simply don't show in .38 special until it is too late.
Click to expand...

OKFC05- You can talk to me in any way you like- after all, I AM a student. That's why I posted, and I appreciate your taking the time to reply. But with respect, I've been very careful on the road so far.

The first 150 or so rounds, I've measured every one with a Hornady scale. I've since bought an inexpensive Lee powder thrower and have been happy with the accuracy of being in the neighborhood of + to - 0.1 gram.

Again, I'm comparing the .38 Special loads I've done to a recoil "feel" of mild target ammo. Most all ranges have either Winchester or Federal 130 gr. ball. Now, in using this factory ammo out of my 686 4" .357 Mag is what I'd term "mild". (Nothing like the fire breathing high-zoot of various .357 factory loads I've fired from this same revolver.

Early on, I carefully loaded 50 rounds with 4.1 gr. and was surprised at the "almost no" recoil. The 4.4 gr. reloads were closer to the mild factory ammo. As an experiment, I loaded 12 rounds or so of 4.7 gr. and in a cylinder of "3 rounds store-bought; 3 rounds my 4.7 gr. loads" I could not tell the difference in recoil.

If "feel" is any indication, I've matched the factory target round for recoil. Indeed, the charted book recommendation of 4.1 gr. felt anemic.

Anyway, I'm a beginner here, but I've gone about it slowly, and my quality control is as good as I can make it.



 
I am not understanding and need some help from you.

Are you loading these rounds in 38 or 357 cases?

Loading a powder that has a listed max charge of 4.1 creates X amount of pressure. 4.7 grains of the same powder does NOT create X+.6 more. The pressure goes up in a curve. The curve turns into a spike somewhere. You are between curve and spike. Nobody here knows where.

If you want more bang, you need a slower powder that you can use more of. The pressure curve is different. You can get the "bang" or velocity you want with the proper powder, not the wrong powder that it even says so in the book.

Those folks that wrote the manuals did a lot of testing to prove the loads written.

SO to be crude and honest like I am, quit messing around with over charges. I would like to keep you and your gun as members of this forum.

Its a fun hobby, please keep it safe.

David
 
I've found softer loads are better for accuracy in both my 686 with .357 loads, and my .45acp reloads. I haven't loaded any with the PB yet, I've used 2400 in all of my .357 loads with very good success. My go to load right now is a 158gr lead SWC (.358diam Missouri bullets)) over 13.7grains of 2400, using a cci500 non magnum primers. Accurate, no leading, nice round target holes). I've also loaded the same with Berry's Plated Flat point (.357 diam) with great accuracy. As always, work your load up, and don't exceed maximum data, it may work but it is dangerous. Even if you just change primers, rework up for load!
 
Harley Fan said:
I'm new to shooting,

at 10 yards, I wasn't grouping the re-loads as well as a couple cylinders-worth of factory.
Click to expand...

If you are new to shooting you need to focus on the fundamentals, sight alignment and trigger control.

basics, basics, basics, basics, and more basics.

when shooting at 10 yards, there isn't enough difference in ammo to talk about.

I chased my tail for a year or two when I started shooting
Got some good simple advise that I ignored

you have a good gun
now go with a standard common known load for 38
(this has largely been worked out over the last 50years or so by the bullseye crowd)
the rest is up to you

you know you want consistency in your loads
consistency in the basics is far more important
 
Your gun may be different, but my model 10 does much better, accuracy wise, with heavier cast loads, than with 125 grain jacketed rounds. I get my best results with either 140 or 158 grain cast.
 
So, is are those Federal cases rated to withstand the pressure generated by a 357 Magnum load? Or, do you run the risk of a case head separation by loading them with a 357 Magnum charge.

BTW, I looked and that 4.7 grain load IS above the recommended 357 Magnum starting charge for a 125 grain jacketed bullet with PB. Not knowing whether Federal 38 special cases can handle 357 Magnum charge levels I would be breaking those hot loads down to components.
 
Without a chronograph, it's hard to know how hot or not your reloads are. Feeling for recoil is not the way. Different powders give different feels. Where exactly did you get the 4.7gr load info from? The proper way to check accuracy would be to load five rounds at, (using your loads), 4.1, then five @ 4.4, then five @ 4.7. Using the same rest, shoot all three, see where the accuracy is relative to each other and the factory ammo. It's possible your gun doesn't like the 'hot' load, maybe the actual bullets you're using aren't that accurate or they don't 'get along' with the particular powder. Experiment, have some fun, make sure you are checking the brass for signs of over pressure.
 
He don't need a chrono yet .. his next investment should be a proper press and dies so as to take better control of the size , seat, and crimp variables.

as for the hot charge debate ... I agree that he should opt for a slower powder in the long run. as he seems to be using these in a 686 .357 mag .. he is afforded some latitude here, but must understand that there is a catch.
If you later opt to add a small 38 snub to your collection, these hot rounds are bad things waiting for a place to happen.

so we have ..
1) change to a proper load, that will give you what you want without pushing it.
2) equipment upgrade .. single stage presses can be had cheap
3) burn up this current load so that it don't come to haunt you.
4) follow us down the rabbit hole with test equipment.

do these things in this order
 
This data is from the SPEER Reloading Manual #13. I do not have the latest edition (#14) as of yet.

38 Special-125 Grain Speer JSP, GD-HP, JHP, TMJ bullets:

PB powder list only 1 max load @ 4.9 Grains. The manual states Do Not Reduce from this loading data due to jacketed bullets getting stuck in the barrel of the gun, as jacketed bullets need a minimum velocity due to resistance of the jacket material. So in a Standard 38 Special loading, 4.9 Grains PB powder behind a 125 Grain JACKETED bullet produces app. 927 FPS Muzzle Velocity.

Now under 38 Special +P data, the same 125 Grain Jacketed bullets:

STARTING LOAD of 4.9 Grains PB powder @ same M.V. (927FPS)
MAXIMUM LOAD of 5.4 Grains with a M.V. of 1,021 FPS.

Specs/components used per the manual are as follows:
Case: Speer
Max case length: 1.155"
Trim to Length: 1.145"
Primer: CCI 500
Firearm Used: S&W Model 14 w/6" bbl.

The components and firearm are the same for both the Standard 38 Special and 38 +P loads.


Keep in mind, this data is for JACKETED bullets. PLATED bullets are a different animal, as are Lead bullets. At least according to this data, you are close to max @ 4.7 Grains of PB powder. From here, you would be entering +P territory, at least in my estimation. Please use ALL DATA with caution, whether from this Forum or other sources such as bullet/powder manufacturers. Keep in mind, most accurate loads do not have to be maximum loads. And I for one, don't shoot maximum loads in any of my firearms, especially practice, plinking or target loads.
 
I have never loaded on a Lee hand loader, so I am unfamiliar with how it crimps. One of the more important reloading steps hasn't been addressed here. That is the proper "consistent" crimp. The powder obtains it's pressure and accuracy by the length of time of the burn. With inconsistent crimp holding the bullet the burn will be inconsistent. Many years ago I proved it to myself and a few others. I loaded two batch's of 38 target loads. 148 gr. HBWC with 2.8 gr Bullseye. The classic bullseye accuracy load serious competitors use. One batch I loaded using once used brass all the same mfg. the other batch I loaded after trimming precisely to the exact same length then precisely adjusting to a medium firm roll crimp just over the end of the bullet (flush seated). The precisely trimmed and crimped load shot the X ring out of a B3 target at 50' from a Ransom Rest, while the other load barely made a 98 score with only 4 X's. (10 rounds shot on each). If you are satisfied with angle of beer can accuracy you don't have to worry as much about trim and crimp, but if you want really accurate loads you do.
 
Want to thank each and every one of you for taking the time to reply. I'm no stranger to Forums (belong to several bike forums) but this one is great for the massive amount of know-how.

I'm going to copy/paste/print some of these posts and put them in my reloading book I keep to record things.

Accept my apologies for not stating enough facts.

I'd posted here in the past about beginning re-loading, and it's here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/354503-newby-using-lee-loader-38-sp.html

So, my son and I got back from the range a little while ago. The whole reason for posting this thread was a question about accuracy... but my focus switched to other things, as a result of this thread. In addition to my son's Glock 9mm, I took my S&W 686 4" and in addition to that, my new-to-me model 10 .38 special 2" snubbie.

I fired 18 rounds of 158 gr. .357 out of the 686 for the heck of it, and several cylinders of factory .38 special target ammo. I again compared it to 24 rounds of my .38 special re-loads loaded with 4.7 gr. I could again tell no difference in recoil between factory and mine. But, that's not the point. I learned something, and I'll get back to that.

~~

The Model 10 was a delight to shoot! My son and I ran several cylinders of factory .38 ammo through it. Now, this little .38 really had a more significant recoil with factory ammo. I then fed it my 4.1 gr. minimum spec .38 reloaded ammo, and it loved it! I had 50 rounds of it, and we used it up.

So, I said all that to say this- I was using the perceived recoil of that big 686 to go a little hotter than spec.

Ain't going to do that again.
 
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