Sad but true. Just like real auto mechanics.......................All we have now is parts changers.
Real Gunsmiths Disappearing
- Thread starter fleabus101
- Start date
Threads like this make me feel lucky. I don't know any good gun smiths. But, I do have really good metal skills, a small lathe and a couple mills, A S&W Armorer manual and a copy of Knudson's book and the patience to work it out. I am not going tto make a trigger or hammer, but I can buy those. I can ream a cylinder, fit and time it. Install a barrel or set one back. Slowly bought or made many of the specific tools. I am slow. but I am doing it because I like and want something the way I want it. Most of it is not rocket science, and the tolerances are with in my abilities. If I come out .002 on the barrel gap its not a big deal if I shoot for .004 in the first place.The worst thing you can do is get in a hurry or heavy handed.
Get a couple of old guns and go to tinkering. I have a model 10 has been through a lot in my hands. J&G has or had some model 10s minus barrels for $130 bucks, lots of places have parts. Books are for sale, videos available,
I am not going to build the worlds most accurate bench rest gun. But, then I don't need the worlds most accurate bench rest gun.
Solid, reliable with decent accuracy I can manage, given time.I have messed up a few parts learning, price of my education, so far I have not wrecked a frame.
Get a couple of old guns and go to tinkering. I have a model 10 has been through a lot in my hands. J&G has or had some model 10s minus barrels for $130 bucks, lots of places have parts. Books are for sale, videos available,
I am not going to build the worlds most accurate bench rest gun. But, then I don't need the worlds most accurate bench rest gun.
Solid, reliable with decent accuracy I can manage, given time.I have messed up a few parts learning, price of my education, so far I have not wrecked a frame.
Many moons ago, an old time gunsmith posed the following question:
Q: What is the difference between a pizza and a gunsmith?
A: A pizza can feed a family of four!
Q: What is the difference between a pizza and a gunsmith?
A: A pizza can feed a family of four!
I would say to tool up proper shop you would be talking at least $250k.
Way back in 2003 I read an article that said "When it absolutely,
positively must work, knowledgeable people from all over the world
send their guns to Karl Sokol." Karl does business as Chestnut Mountain
Sports.
I had, and still have, a Colt's Gold Cup National Match, that I carried at
the time, and I had to depend on it absolutely, positively working every
time, so I sent it to Karl. He did an excellent job, using all Ed Brown
parts. Seventeen years later it still works flawlessly. I understand that
he does great work on revolvers as well.
There are still some great gunsmiths around, and he is one of them.
positively must work, knowledgeable people from all over the world
send their guns to Karl Sokol." Karl does business as Chestnut Mountain
Sports.
I had, and still have, a Colt's Gold Cup National Match, that I carried at
the time, and I had to depend on it absolutely, positively working every
time, so I sent it to Karl. He did an excellent job, using all Ed Brown
parts. Seventeen years later it still works flawlessly. I understand that
he does great work on revolvers as well.
There are still some great gunsmiths around, and he is one of them.
Interesting. I know that sounds like a whole lot of money but if your going to, do it right and do it with good machinery and tools and don’t sacrifice on floor space. Worn out unreliable machinery and tooling cost way too much if quality and a schedule are important. It’s the incidentals, the tooling, the stuff that fills the voids between the big ticket items that runs up the bill. Then the building, lighting, heating and ventilation, insurance is a big nut, safe storage, etc. The gunsmith business requires so many levels of skills and accordingly tools and materials compared to other trades that if your just getting started and don’t have much capital it’s like a medical doctor coming out of school owing his first twenty years to the bank. And doctors can get loans. Try your hand at a bank with a gunsmithing business plan. Better off selling legal dope.
There is some good news though and it has to do with machinery costs. Lots and lots of small machine shops are being auctioned off. Those days of ten Bridgeports and rows of lathes are over its CNC and right now the economy is shriveling so a sharp eyed buyer can get some nice machines for .20-.30 cents on the dollar. Build or buy a rotary phase converter if you don’t have three phase cause most all industrial equipment is such. The way I see it you can equip a small shop for less than half of what it cost tens years ago.
2152hg’s comments should inspire those who have the drive and heart for the business. Not saying he would be interested but years ago a young guy would find an older craftsman and offer his labor in exchange for knowledge. I did it several times to learn wood boat building then again some of the elements of gunsmithing. Location and opportunity are a challenge but there are always ways if you want it bad enough. Growing up as a kid Frank Pachmayr used to let me sweep the shops and allow me to ask and try to pick his gunsmiths brains, some anyway. I was too young so it was a wasted opportunity. Anyway I’m trying to say that the skilled old timers are the true best source For learning the skills of a trade like this. Most of them don’t want to pass without sharing and helping to keep the trade alive.
Rick
Biggfoot44
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It used to be the talent pool for competent DA revolver armorers, and springboard for moving up to fullfledeged 'smith were the S&W and Ruger LE Armorer's course graduates . Either moonlighting , or post retirement . But alas , with the Revolver Era winding down 30-35 yrs ago, they are getting thin on the ground also .
I will go a step further about gunsmiths. I have lived in WV all my life. I have owned firearms for 40 years. I have known of one all round gunsmith,that made a living of it and lived in WV.
The rest are hobbist that specialize in a certain discipline of firearms. I don't know of any local gunsmiths that could install and chamber a rifle barrel.
I shoot competitively and had all,my pistols were built out of state. I have paid for one recoil pad to be installed. I now do all my work myself as I need it.
The profession around here never really existed.
The rest are hobbist that specialize in a certain discipline of firearms. I don't know of any local gunsmiths that could install and chamber a rifle barrel.
I shoot competitively and had all,my pistols were built out of state. I have paid for one recoil pad to be installed. I now do all my work myself as I need it.
The profession around here never really existed.
Tired Gunsmith
Member
I started out in the 1940's ( my first FFL 12-49) later became 12-49M (gunsmithing was considered manufacturing),
I apprenticed to a gentleman who held his Meisterbrief from Germany. Made me hand file a block of steel into a ball, then after I proved I could run the lathe allowed me to assist with rebarreling military rifles into sporters.
I chose to specialize in handguns....New York City at the time only required the fee of $2.00 and you could call yourself a " gunsmith".
Later they woke up and had a test. Many failed and were no longer allowed to be licensed.
They licensed some partially...NO MACHINE TOOLS ALLOWED.
My license was endorsed NO RESTRICTIONS.
I tried to hire men to work for me who had gone to gunsmithing schools. None I could trust to work on the NYCPD handguns which we specialized in.
Through the years I became a Colt Parts distributor and factory authorized repair depot.
(Our shop repaired more S&W products than Colt as they Colt was not as popular due to pricing)
When it came time to retire, sold the Police Equipment business to the employees, but they had no one qualified to be gunsmiths.
No longer able to even work on my own remaining items.
'.
I apprenticed to a gentleman who held his Meisterbrief from Germany. Made me hand file a block of steel into a ball, then after I proved I could run the lathe allowed me to assist with rebarreling military rifles into sporters.
I chose to specialize in handguns....New York City at the time only required the fee of $2.00 and you could call yourself a " gunsmith".
Later they woke up and had a test. Many failed and were no longer allowed to be licensed.
They licensed some partially...NO MACHINE TOOLS ALLOWED.
My license was endorsed NO RESTRICTIONS.
I tried to hire men to work for me who had gone to gunsmithing schools. None I could trust to work on the NYCPD handguns which we specialized in.
Through the years I became a Colt Parts distributor and factory authorized repair depot.
(Our shop repaired more S&W products than Colt as they Colt was not as popular due to pricing)
When it came time to retire, sold the Police Equipment business to the employees, but they had no one qualified to be gunsmiths.
No longer able to even work on my own remaining items.
'.
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Trooper224
Member
Today, the term "gunsmith" doesn't mean what it once did. In the way back, a gunsmith was often a master machinist who could not only fit but manufacture parts. In the modern era of the plastic fantastic, "gunsmith" is a term often used to describe someone with a knowledge in parts replacement at the level of a law enforcement armorer.
My LGS just announced they'd hired a second "gunsmith". When I asked a few questions I quickly determined the individuals skill set revolved around dropping in plastic fantastic trigger kits, mounting and bore sighting scopes, etc. Nothing that required any fitting or machining of parts, etc.
The old school gunsmith is a dying breed. The modern equivalent is a plumber, not a machinist.
My LGS just announced they'd hired a second "gunsmith". When I asked a few questions I quickly determined the individuals skill set revolved around dropping in plastic fantastic trigger kits, mounting and bore sighting scopes, etc. Nothing that required any fitting or machining of parts, etc.
The old school gunsmith is a dying breed. The modern equivalent is a plumber, not a machinist.
We in the Phoenix area are very lucky to have an outstanding gunsmith available here. I highly recommend my good friend Nelson Ford, DBA "The Gunsmith" on north 32nd street.
Nelson specializes in S&W revolvers and Colt .45 autos. He's done wondrous work for me for many years. He's a real character - eccentric and opinionated, but extremely competent and a gas to talk with. In my opinion,he's one of the finest Smith revolver gunsmiths in the entire country.
Tell him John sent you if you want to call him at 602-992-0050.
John
Nelson specializes in S&W revolvers and Colt .45 autos. He's done wondrous work for me for many years. He's a real character - eccentric and opinionated, but extremely competent and a gas to talk with. In my opinion,he's one of the finest Smith revolver gunsmiths in the entire country.
Tell him John sent you if you want to call him at 602-992-0050.
John
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Protocall_Design
Member
One of my good shooting friends is a retired Master Plumber. His skill set is well above the average for that trade. He would be highly insulted to be compared to a "modern gunsmith".
I do agree with the general sentiment of your post, however.
How many watch or clock makers are around today? Back in the day a watch maker had to actually make a perfect watch as in every gear and tiny part in them! Amazing craftsmanship.
As with Gunsmiths the trend towards striker fire semi auto handguns there is little to no need for a GunSmith. Heck in some cases it's cheaper to buy a new polymer gun. Unless on spends BIG mony for precision bolt rifles, even those the factory just swaps out parts,
Same as everything today, it's cheaper to get a new one and dispose of the old. Kitchen appliances The last a year or two then something electronic fails and a service call and parts is half the price of a new one.
We bought a new Cuisinart toaster/Air fry oven. Cuisinart is a little better than most but still China junk. Well the inside light went out. Still worked but no inside light. There is no way to replace the damn light. Called the company and they sent a new one and return shipment for the old one.
Somehow that is more cost effective than making a changeable led light "bulb"?? Crazy!
As with Gunsmiths the trend towards striker fire semi auto handguns there is little to no need for a GunSmith. Heck in some cases it's cheaper to buy a new polymer gun. Unless on spends BIG mony for precision bolt rifles, even those the factory just swaps out parts,
Same as everything today, it's cheaper to get a new one and dispose of the old. Kitchen appliances The last a year or two then something electronic fails and a service call and parts is half the price of a new one.
We bought a new Cuisinart toaster/Air fry oven. Cuisinart is a little better than most but still China junk. Well the inside light went out. Still worked but no inside light. There is no way to replace the damn light. Called the company and they sent a new one and return shipment for the old one.
Somehow that is more cost effective than making a changeable led light "bulb"?? Crazy!
Trooper224
Member
Well, with so many fragile snowflakes around these days offending someone is unavoidable.
It's actually harder to be a plumber than a gunsmith. The plumber has to actually go to the job site, carry all his tools all kinds of weather and put up with a lot of you know what. A gunsmith sits in air conditioned comfort and people come to him.
buckyjames1
US Veteran
aspects:
1. parts buying vs. parts making, As the internet came along many shops
just buy a new part. its easier, less costly, and fixes the problem faster.
2. Armorer vs Full gunsmith: Most people do indeed just need new sights installed, scopes mounted and leveled, parts replacement, and a good cleaning. I believe that's the steady cash flow.
3. Age and gun trends: Working in a large gun shop and shooting range has taught me a major customer base lesson. There are lots of younger shooters getting into the shooting sports or for defensive reasons but they buy what is currently available. Current gun trends have put out some really great, affordable, and easily modded fire arms. The module designs of these fire arms is "Simpler" and more easily repaired or taken apart. The ar15 platform and GLOCKs are a perfect example of simple and effective fire arms.
4. Older firearms are simply beginning to disappear, thus the reflection is the typical armorer/ smith just doesn't get to get perform actions or repairs on them and the knowledge base on these old fire arms dries up.
5. It takes years, not just a degree, to gather the experience and exposure to various exotic or old fire arms and we just don't see as many of them come into the shops. It takes clients to justify buying a .500 cylinder reamer/forcing cone/throat reamer set and when you do, chances are you won't see another .500 come into the shop,,,then the set just sits on the shelf.
6. Combine these factors as well: Gunsmiths only get experience on what is brought into them, if 100 people brought in GLOCKs, and 1 person brought in an exotic Weatherby custom rifle...well you see the point.
7. I'm still in the aspiring category, and only over the last 3 years since retirement from the military, have I really tried to up my game but I'm really only in the "armorer and repairs" quality. It takes a ton of time to gain the experience unless you are fortunate enough to get an apprenticeship under a great smith or shop.
8. This one was a biggie for me. Grumpy Old Timers, I've dealt with "gunsmiths" who were the biggest, grumpiest, ego minded individuals. These individuals would not give you the benefit of the doubt on anything and make a perceived assumption about anyone walking into the door. This IMO is not good for future customer relations and fertilizing the want for future and aspiring gunsmiths. I have found that GLOCK and AR-15 people are really excited about mods, upgrades repairs, and the same goes for the people working on them, this sparks conversation and enthusiasm and most importantly...interest in the fire arms community.
Bourbon uses a 10 year model to project there output and quality,
Good bourbon take alot of time and effort to get right, right now, there is alot of new distillers putting out some "swill" but that's because they are new to the game and hopefully we will see some more GREAT quality stuff put out, but it takes time to learn the process, get the recipe right, and have a market for their product.
A GREAT example is Sam Adams brewing, they are helping Aspiring brewers tremendously by programs such as The Samuel Adams Brewing & Business Experienceship, they have even given other brewers portions of their prized Barley. They like to brew beer so much that they want to see others BREW BEER too.
Whats the fix?
- More fire arms manufacturing apprenticeships
- More Gunsmiths open minded about apprenticeships
- NRA and other shooting organization grants and for Goodness sakes, open
up the S/W revolver armorers course to more people.
- Stop bashing the online degree programs and give some credit to
a new and aspiring smith' who has to start somewhere.
One last comment and I'll stop with the typing...We have to embrace the new and young shooters, we have accept inexperienced shooters and stop with the judging, we have to accept the fact that our experience and knowledge came from YEARS of development..and don't forget, when we were young bucks, we were just as inexperienced and naive as they are.
Next time your at the range, comment on their new "wonder gun" , Welcome them in and start a conversation, otherwise, this community is doomed.
Should I win the lottery, and have millions, Ill start a national organization to bring back this dying skill. Wish me luck.
1. parts buying vs. parts making, As the internet came along many shops
just buy a new part. its easier, less costly, and fixes the problem faster.
2. Armorer vs Full gunsmith: Most people do indeed just need new sights installed, scopes mounted and leveled, parts replacement, and a good cleaning. I believe that's the steady cash flow.
3. Age and gun trends: Working in a large gun shop and shooting range has taught me a major customer base lesson. There are lots of younger shooters getting into the shooting sports or for defensive reasons but they buy what is currently available. Current gun trends have put out some really great, affordable, and easily modded fire arms. The module designs of these fire arms is "Simpler" and more easily repaired or taken apart. The ar15 platform and GLOCKs are a perfect example of simple and effective fire arms.
4. Older firearms are simply beginning to disappear, thus the reflection is the typical armorer/ smith just doesn't get to get perform actions or repairs on them and the knowledge base on these old fire arms dries up.
5. It takes years, not just a degree, to gather the experience and exposure to various exotic or old fire arms and we just don't see as many of them come into the shops. It takes clients to justify buying a .500 cylinder reamer/forcing cone/throat reamer set and when you do, chances are you won't see another .500 come into the shop,,,then the set just sits on the shelf.
6. Combine these factors as well: Gunsmiths only get experience on what is brought into them, if 100 people brought in GLOCKs, and 1 person brought in an exotic Weatherby custom rifle...well you see the point.
7. I'm still in the aspiring category, and only over the last 3 years since retirement from the military, have I really tried to up my game but I'm really only in the "armorer and repairs" quality. It takes a ton of time to gain the experience unless you are fortunate enough to get an apprenticeship under a great smith or shop.
8. This one was a biggie for me. Grumpy Old Timers, I've dealt with "gunsmiths" who were the biggest, grumpiest, ego minded individuals. These individuals would not give you the benefit of the doubt on anything and make a perceived assumption about anyone walking into the door. This IMO is not good for future customer relations and fertilizing the want for future and aspiring gunsmiths. I have found that GLOCK and AR-15 people are really excited about mods, upgrades repairs, and the same goes for the people working on them, this sparks conversation and enthusiasm and most importantly...interest in the fire arms community.
Bourbon uses a 10 year model to project there output and quality,
Good bourbon take alot of time and effort to get right, right now, there is alot of new distillers putting out some "swill" but that's because they are new to the game and hopefully we will see some more GREAT quality stuff put out, but it takes time to learn the process, get the recipe right, and have a market for their product.
A GREAT example is Sam Adams brewing, they are helping Aspiring brewers tremendously by programs such as The Samuel Adams Brewing & Business Experienceship, they have even given other brewers portions of their prized Barley. They like to brew beer so much that they want to see others BREW BEER too.
Whats the fix?
- More fire arms manufacturing apprenticeships
- More Gunsmiths open minded about apprenticeships
- NRA and other shooting organization grants and for Goodness sakes, open
up the S/W revolver armorers course to more people.
- Stop bashing the online degree programs and give some credit to
a new and aspiring smith' who has to start somewhere.
One last comment and I'll stop with the typing...We have to embrace the new and young shooters, we have accept inexperienced shooters and stop with the judging, we have to accept the fact that our experience and knowledge came from YEARS of development..and don't forget, when we were young bucks, we were just as inexperienced and naive as they are.
Next time your at the range, comment on their new "wonder gun" , Welcome them in and start a conversation, otherwise, this community is doomed.
Should I win the lottery, and have millions, Ill start a national organization to bring back this dying skill. Wish me luck.
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