realoading .44 Special: some thoughts and questions

[Daimler1989]

Hello,
for quite a few years I'm experimenting with the .44 Special. I have not found THE load for me, because there still are some things, that might be an issue for me. Using 240-250 grs bullets, POA and POI at my preffered range distances between 10 and 25 meters are very different. So I switched to 200 grs bullets. The chamber throats of my gun (S&W 624 4") are wide, .429/.430 bullets simply fall through, .431 bullets can be pushed through without effort, so I guess throat diameter is .432. The only nearly satisfying results regarding accuracy were with .431 bullets (I use Fiocchi 44 teflon coated lead SWC, but they are very expensive). I ditched the Lee Factory Crimp Die and use a healthy roll crimp instead, so not to reduce the bullet diameter. But still there is a certain amount of unburnt powder, esp. if I use powders with small grain like AA #2 or AA#5 or the VV powders from 320 to 340. My guess is that the light 200 grs bullets don't provide enough resistance and get out of the case too fast for a proper burning. I don't want to continue to use fast powders like N320, AA #2 for ballistic reasons, but would prefer powder in the Unique/Universal/N330/N340 range (which do not burn as desired). Do 215 grs bullets offer enough weight to slow down acceleration to increase powder burning? Or would it be advantageous to increase bullet diameter to .432? Or both?

To clarify: I always try my loads in a S&W 696 as well. Chamber throats are less than .429, i.e. mucht tighter than the 624. Accuracy is mostly better, bullet speed with the 3" barrel higher than with the 4". But powder burning is nearly the same effect.

Has anyone experienced similar things and found a working solution? I must add, I'm living in Germany, so unfortunately I don't have the chance get .432 bullets made in US, and US made powders are mostly difficult to obtain (that's why I mostly use VV or french Vectan/SNPE powders).

thanks for helping
regards from Germany
Ulrich

 

[Fishinfool]

A couple thoughts. If your POI vs your POA is that far off on an adjustable sight gun, then a taller or shorter front sight or rear sight leaf may be in order. There should not be that much of a difference in POI with 240 / 250 grain bullets between 10 and 25 yards, unless you are shooting critical bullseye matches, maybe.

As far as unburned powder goes, there is almost always some depending on the load, and it is not really an issue as long as the load is accurate. I know it bothers some folks, but unless it is really bad, (and few known "book" loads are) I just clean the gun when I am done shooting and don't worry about it. I am not really familiar with the powders you are using, but generally, faster powders burn cleaner when used with light for caliber bullets, especially when being pushed to .44 spl velocities.

If your throats are oversized at .432, then your best accuracy will probably come with lead bullets sized to that diameter. Jacketed, if an option, are usually less sensitive to throat size, and .429 / .430 may work well for you. Another option for you may be cast or swaged lead .429 bullets with a hollow base, similar to what some factories load for the .45c, another gun with varying throat sizes. They work. You also might find softer cast or swaged bullets might tend to "bump up" upon firing, and better seal you throats. Can you obtain .432 bullet molds and cast your own?

A couple favorite powders for me when loading the .44 spl at less than 900 fps have been Red Dot and Win 231, both producing good accuracy and a relaitively clean burn with both 200 and 240 grain bullets.

Larry

 

[andy52]

Right now I'm using .430 255gr Keith style SWC over 6.5gr AA#5 it's a pretty light load but very accurate in my model 24. The throats are right on the money at .429. These are paper punching loads and I really haven't tried any hotter loads. I had tried some loads with AA#9 and had lots of unburnt power and less then stellar accuracy.

 

[Forrest r]

Sounds like you need to start over and rethink what your doing. You should be able to use any powder with that 624/bullet combo.

One of my favorite bullets to use in my s&w 624 was the mihec 220gr hbwc bullet. A picture of the 624 with test bullets/seating depths.

Don't know if you cast your own bullets but this is what your looking for:
Bullets with a 8bhn to 12bhn alloy
Bullets that are at least .430" in diameter
Learn how to powder coat bullets

Powder coating a bullet will do 2 things. It will easily add 2/1000th's in diameter to any bullet with 1 coat. And yes you can add more than 1 coat to any bullet. The pc'ing process will anneal an alloy making it more elastic.

I've used/shot 44spl's for 30+ years now & still do to this day. Been reloading for them just as long, 1 heck of a caliber. I carry a snub nosed 44spl for things that go bump in the night. Some of the latest test loads using a:
210gr hollow based hollow point swc (hb hp swc)
220gr hollow based wad cutter turned backwards (hbwc)
200gr gas checked swc (gc swc)
185gr hollow based hollow point flat round nose (hb hp frn)

Anyway your 624 will never shoot right with lead bullets until you use a .432"/.4325" bullet. Any .340" bullet can be powder coated up to those sizes. If you don't cast your own try buying some bullets that are made from soft lead. The simply remove the lube if you can't buy un-lubed bullets and powder coat them yourself.

Another option is to get a bump die and buy soft lubed bullets and simply bump them up to your desired diameter. Swaging dies & making your own jacketed bullets are another option. Heck I swage these jacketed bullets for the 44spl/mags from nothing more than 40s&w brass and free range lead using nothing more then common reloading dies that anyone can buy.

What your doing doesn't have to be extremely complicated. Before I bought a 32cal hbwc mold I made my own 32cal hbwc's using this simple bump/swaging die.

Anyone with a drill press can easily make a simple die like the 1 pictured above. I cast a .311" 93gr rn bullet and put it in the die pictured above and hit it with a mallet and out came a .314" (i needed a .314" bullet) that was a hbwc.

Just something to think about.

 

[The Norseman]

Lead free for me

For Lead Free performance in the Barrel, I have been making
and using Ben's Liquid Lube. Just Google to find out.

Extra step but worth it to me. It's not like I shoot and reload
hundreds of at a time.

Thank you for all the good information.

 

[cowboy4evr]

Don't get too caught up in the size of cylinder throats being oversize . It's the " groove " size of the barrel that is important . If the cylinder throats are smaller than the groove size of the barrel , then you have a problem .
I would buy cast bullets sized .431 . I'm not familiar with your powders . I use Winchester Super Target for my target loads in 44's . It burns very clean and shoots accurately . I use the " real " Keith 245 gr swc , HG 503 in my 44 special and 44 magnums .

 

[BLUEDOT37]

But still there is a certain amount of unburnt powder, esp. if I use powders with small grain like AA #2 or AA#5 or the VV powders from 320 to 340.

I've never used AA #2 or VV320 but on the burn chart they show to be about like W231/HP38 so I don't understand why you're having unburnt powder problems, even with loose throats. How bad is it?

You're correct, a larger diameter bullet would be held up in the throats & give a better burn but, again, that shouldn't be a problem with fast powders, more so with slow powders.

.

 

[ontargetagain]

Great info being shared here. Reading along I wonder.........do you have un-burnt powder or is it burnt with remaining particles? I have a few powders that in certain loads leave residue but it is burnt rather than un-burnt.

Is there any chance a different primer could be helpful with powder burn in your loads?
Karl

 

[Daimler1989]

@ all

thanks everyone for that great input. Just to answer a few questions:

• I use the gun on the range, but yet didn't use it for bullseye matches because the accuracy of my loads didn't satisfy me - no problems with my M27-3 and M27-2, which I use for revolver matches instead.
• the faster the powder I use, the less powder particles are left
• the lighter the bullet I use, the more powder particles are left
• much of the powder particles are burnt and fall down directly in front of me (lots of yellow powder particles on the range table). Once I had to disassemble the cylinder assembly, because the powder residue under the extractor was so much that the cylinder jammed
• I tried Large Rifle primers, but noticed no significant change
• I want to use powders in the burn rate Unique/Universal/VV N330 because I get a little higher velocities and the better filling of the case
• I did a load with Vectan/SNPE A0 (burn rate like Herco / Longshot) a powder with very large flakes, giving impressive velocities and CLEAN burning. Here the large flakes did the trick...
• I'm considering doing the bullets myself, but I would have to afford all the casting equipment

Yesterday on the range I tried some new loads with 215 grs SWC (7.1 Vectan/SNPE BA9) and 240 SWC HP (6.3 BA9), both sized at .430. Heavy leading after 20 rounds, sooty cases and the same amount of powder particles as always... BA9 is nearly the same burn rate as Unique, slightly slower than VV N330.

I guess that the bullets are moving too fast from the case for the powder to burn properly (except powder with large heavy flakes). Seems as if the bullet diameter might be the cause for the problem. Will try jacketed bullets to see what happens, just as a test.

best regards from Germany
Ulrich

 

[Capt. F.]

Hello,
for quite a few years I'm experimenting with the .44 Special. I have not found THE load for me, because there still are some things, that might be an issue for me. Using 240-250 grs bullets, POA and POI at my preffered range distances between 10 and 25 meters are very different. So I switched to 200 grs bullets. The chamber throats of my gun (S&W 624 4") are wide, .429/.430 bullets simply fall through, .431 bullets can be pushed through without effort, so I guess throat diameter is .432. The only nearly satisfying results regarding accuracy were with .431 bullets (I use Fiocchi 44 teflon coated lead SWC, but they are very expensive). I ditched the Lee Factory Crimp Die and use a healthy roll crimp instead, so not to reduce the bullet diameter. But still there is a certain amount of unburnt powder, esp. if I use powders with small grain like AA #2 or AA#5 or the VV powders from 320 to 340. My guess is that the light 200 grs bullets don't provide enough resistance and get out of the case too fast for a proper burning. I don't want to continue to use fast powders like N320, AA #2 for ballistic reasons, but would prefer powder in the Unique/Universal/N330/N340 range (which do not burn as desired). Do 215 grs bullets offer enough weight to slow down acceleration to increase powder burning? Or would it be advantageous to increase bullet diameter to .432? Or both?

To clarify: I always try my loads in a S&W 696 as well. Chamber throats are less than .429, i.e. mucht tighter than the 624. Accuracy is mostly better, bullet speed with the 3" barrel higher than with the 4". But powder burning is nearly the same effect.

Has anyone experienced similar things and found a working solution? I must add, I'm living in Germany, so unfortunately I don't have the chance get .432 bullets made in US, and US made powders are mostly difficult to obtain (that's why I mostly use VV or french Vectan/SNPE powders).

thanks for helping
regards from Germany
Ulrich

I have 5 .44 Specials, a custom pre-27, a Rossi model 720, a Great Western 4 3/4", a 624 3" and a 24-3 6 1/2".
All except the 24-3 eat just about anything I feed them accurately. Then there's the 24-3. As one member here said of his 24-3, "it doesn't shoot groups, it shoots patterns". After trying 250 grn Keith's from my Lyman mold, LBT 250 grn and even Sierra 240 grn jacketed with loads up and down the scale I've come to conclusion there's a problem with throat/bore diameter. Haven't slugged yet but betting that's the problem.
Right now it's a great wall hanger.

 

[RoninPhx]

ulrich
sent you a private message. Check your messages.

 

[Daimler1989]

...
... Then there's the 24-3. As one member here said of his 24-3, "it doesn't shoot groups, it shoots patterns"....
Right now it's a great wall hanger....

@ Capt F. I'm sorry for that.

Don't get it wrong:My 624 is not an inaccurate gun, it only has some faults that don't satisfy ME. On shorter distances it's mostly fine, like here, 10 Meters 12 rounds. 25 Meters they group about 5 times of this...

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I guess that the bullets are moving too fast from the case for the powder to burn properly

Don't know if it's applicable to you, but I recently was loading some 44 Mags with .429" Nosler 240gr JHP & noticed I was getting very little bullet-case tension, even though I was using minimal case flaring.

The short story, I bought a new sizer die (Hornady) which sized the cases .002" smaller than the Lee sizer I'd been using. This made a big difference on bullet-case tension when seating a bullet.

How's your bullet-case tension? A roll crimp along can't provide enough tension for a uniform burn to get started. Just a thought.

.

 

[Forrest r]

Your problem is the bullet isn't sealing the cylinders of the 624. Been there done that. No seal ='s no pressure/no complete burn. Then the bullets skid when hitting the forcing cone causing leading and poor accuracy.

If you look at the picture of the 624 I posted above you will see that there's bullets in that picture. They are 220gr hbwc's cast/sized to .432". If you look closely you will see that those .432" bullets are loaded:
flush
crimped in the top lube groove
crimped in the bottom lube groove

I was seating those bullets at different depths looks for accuracy/testing loads. Accuracy ='s x-ring on a nra 25yd target or 1 1/2" 10-shot groups @ 25yds.

I found the accuracy I was looking for with that 220gr hbwc crimped in the bottom lube groove/ over 1/2" of that .432" bullet sticking out of the 44spl case. The bullet had to go that far to fill/seal/start strait in the cylinders & accuracy was excellent.

You never said if you cast your own bullets or not. A custom mold from Mihec (he's in europe/slovania)
MP MOLDS - Bullet molds
or a mold from neo molds here in the states
N.O.E. Bullet Molds Main Site
Will have you casting making .432/.433" bullets.

Or if you don't cast buy some .430" un-lubed bullets and for under $100 you could be powdercoating your own bullets. Bumping them up to .432".

The 624 isn't going to have any real accuracy until you start feeding it .432" bullets. Then the groups will shrink and the un-burnt powder will be a thing of the past.

I shot that 624 for over a decade in bullseye matches. Before I bought the custom molds that cast oversized bullets I swaged my own .432" bullets

Truly powder coating is the way to go with lead bullets. I use shoot a 686 for bullseye anymore loaded with 38spl's. Here's what the 686 looks like after a 200 round range session.

Not hand picked/cherry picked targets by any means. These are the test targets used when looking for 50ft bullseye loads from that 686. 6-shot bugholes using powder coated bullets.

I own a beater 629 and a bunch of molds for the 44cal's and wanted a plinking load. I tested 6 different bullets and 7 different powders using the traditional lube/sized/cast bullets and found 3 loads that would do mgb @ 25yds.
mgb ='s minute of golf or 1 1/2" @ 25yds/nra bullseye
I re-tested using the same bullets and powders/loads. This time I powder coated the bullets instead. The end result was 13 loads that would do 1 1/2" @ 25yds.

Same bullets/same alloy/same powder/same reloading dies/same 629. The only difference was traditional lube vs pc. The end result was 13 vs 3/the 13 targets from the test loads using pc'd bullets.

Order a bunch of bullets cast from 10bhn to 12bhn alloy that are not lubed or sized. Power coat them/load them/hit the loud button & enjoy. You'll be shooting bugholes in the targets.

 

[Daimler1989]

thanks again everyone,
I'm just figuring out how to get .432 bullets over here. Will slug barrel and chamber throats and measure it, if .432 will be ok. Found some guy who can powder coat lead bullets for me. I will let you know how things go on.
best regards
Ulrich

 

[at_liberty]

@ all

thanks everyone for that great input. Just to answer a few questions:

• I use the gun on the range, but yet didn't use it for bullseye matches because the accuracy of my loads didn't satisfy me - no problems with my M27-3 and M27-2, which I use for revolver matches instead.
• the faster the powder I use, the less powder particles are left
• the lighter the bullet I use, the more powder particles are left
• much of the powder particles are burnt and fall down directly in front of me (lots of yellow powder particles on the range table). Once I had to disassemble the cylinder assembly, because the powder residue under the extractor was so much that the cylinder jammed
• I tried Large Rifle primers, but noticed no significant change
• I want to use powders in the burn rate Unique/Universal/VV N330 because I get a little higher velocities and the better filling of the case
• I did a load with Vectan/SNPE A0 (burn rate like Herco / Longshot) a powder with very large flakes, giving impressive velocities and CLEAN burning. Here the large flakes did the trick...
• I'm considering doing the bullets myself, but I would have to afford all the casting equipment

Yesterday on the range I tried some new loads with 215 grs SWC (7.1 Vectan/SNPE BA9) and 240 SWC HP (6.3 BA9), both sized at .430. Heavy leading after 20 rounds, sooty cases and the same amount of powder particles as always... BA9 is nearly the same burn rate as Unique, slightly slower than VV N330.

I guess that the bullets are moving too fast from the case for the powder to burn properly (except powder with large heavy flakes). Seems as if the bullet diameter might be the cause for the problem. Will try jacketed bullets to see what happens, just as a test.

best regards from Germany
Ulrich

That cylinder is out of spec, so I would just get a new one. Not sure how that would play from Germany.

I have tried lighter bullets in 44 and in 45 Colt, and at 15 yards they definitely did make a significant difference in POI.

Note that some leading at non-magnum velocities is due to bullets that are too hard.

 

[cowboy4evr]

You are getting some really bad advice about the cylinder throats size . To get a new cylinder is pure " nonsense " If the cylinder throats are too small compared to the barrel size, that's a problem . If they are a little oversize compared to the barrel , that's fine . I have a model 25-5 ( 45 colt) that has cylinder throats that are very large . It is the one of the most accurate revolvers I have . I cast and shoot bullets size .454 instead of .452 .
YOur bullets sized .430 are really at least .001 too small in diameter. YOu mentioned getting some powder coated . That should add enough size to make them acceptable , probably around .431-.4315 .
I am wondering if you have a tight spot in the barrel where the barrel threads onto the frame . This can happen when they " indexed " the front sight to the rear sight . They would of had to over tighten the barrel to get the sights lined up . When you drive a lead slug down the barrel . If you hit " a wall , a tight spot " just before the slug exits the barrel , forcing cone , there is your problem . Make up some " fire lap " bullets to solve that problem . It takes proper internal dimensions to make revolvers fire cast bullets w/o leading the barrel and obtain acceptable accuracy .
Veral Smith @ LBT Molds sells a little soft bound manual describing what it takes (internal dimensions ) to have success shooting cast bullets in revolvers and how to fix the problem areas . It's titled " jacketed performance with cast bullets " . It sells for about $15 , well worth the price .

 

[at_liberty]

You are getting some really bad advice about the cylinder throats size . To get a new cylinder is pure " nonsense " If the cylinder throats are too small compared to the barrel size, that's a problem . If they are a little oversize compared to the barrel , that's fine . I have a model 25-5 ( 45 colt) that has cylinder throats that are very large . It is the one of the most accurate revolvers I have . I cast and shoot bullets size .454 instead of .452 .
YOur bullets sized .430 are really at least .001 too small in diameter. YOu mentioned getting some powder coated . That should add enough size to make them acceptable , probably around .431-.4315 .
I am wondering if you have a tight spot in the barrel where the barrel threads onto the frame . This can happen when they " indexed " the front sight to the rear sight . They would of had to over tighten the barrel to get the sights lined up . When you drive a lead slug down the barrel . If you hit " a wall , a tight spot " just before the slug exits the barrel , forcing cone , there is your problem . Make up some " fire lap " bullets to solve that problem . It takes proper internal dimensions to make revolvers fire cast bullets w/o leading the barrel and obtain acceptable accuracy .
Veral Smith @ LBT Molds sells a little soft bound manual describing what it takes (internal dimensions ) to have success shooting cast bullets in revolvers and how to fix the problem areas . It's titled " jacketed performance with cast bullets " . It sells for about $15 , well worth the price .

Replacing the cylinder is not "pure nonsense", if you don't cast your own bullets or are not able to buy a bullet to fit. Casting guys want to bring Mohammed to the Mountain, fit the bullet to the gun. Otherwise the gun is WRONG if it won't fit standard size bullets. Reaming cylinders is routine in order to use lead bullets, but a cylinder with oversize throats requires a complete reset. I have a 45 Convertible for which nothing worked until I bought hard-to-find .454 bullets. Still with a slug size of .451, the gun is a misfit. Ruger wasn't helpful about the question of replacing the cylinder with one of a more current size, typically .451, which I could have reamed to .4525.

 

[TAROMAN]

FWIW, this thread confirms my 44 Special loading experience exactly.
My most accurate 44 Spl. is the 696. (.430")
Least accurate are the 624s 3", 4" 6.5" (.433")
Also a very accurate Dan Dwyer conversion 5" 28-2 (.430")

Had Penn make up 2000 .432" of a bullet he was discontinuing.
As those were used up. I sold off the 3" and 6.5" 624s.

 

[38SPL HV]

Great thread, many points applicable to other calibers and firearms well.

I'm glad to see a German, or any Western/Central European for that matter, having the ability to shoot firearms in their respective country - you must connections. Hope others there get the right to enjoy this great sport.

My German heritage is from a city previously known as Breslau - which since 1945 has been part of Poland.