Reloading .44 Russian - Questions

[gwpercle]

A lot of beasts have been done in with lead bullets .
Just use a 44 cal. bullet with a flat nose (round-flat or semi-wadcutter) for added "lethality" . Jacketed bullets will offer no advantage , the 44 Russian just can't be loaded to the velocity needed and for large critters (bears) you want/need penetration
to get the bullet into the vitals . Use a 240 grain Cast Lead bullet and a full charge of black powder or work up a smokeless powder load .
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition has lots of loading data in it, 5 different bullets from 185 grs. to 245 grs with ten different smokeless powders.
Personally ... knowing what I know , I would assemble a heavy black powder load for the old Top Break ...just like it was designed for ... don't think black powder is weak... a heavy charge is hard to safely match with smokeless and will hit hard .
Good Luck ,
Gary

 

[Exmilcop]

Personally I would not use regular 44 cal jacketed bullets. What if I may ask constitutes an antique in Canada? Is there a date of manufacture or what? My really nice SAA 38 WCF was made in 1900 and is NOT considered an antique firearm in the US

Oh boy! Does THAT question open a can of worms! If a firearm is pre-1898 AND the ammunition is not READILY available, it's considered "antique". So, if my DA was in .44-40 or .45 Colt, I would have to register it since most sporting goods stores carry that ammo in a modern loading. Stupidly enough, if I had an antique cap-and-ball revolver in near pristine condition, it too is "antique". If I buy an modern exact replica by Pedersoli, or Armi San Marco, or Pietta, or whoever, then it must be registered. If I take my revolver into the bush, I must have it in an open carry holster. If I have a shoulder holster, I can be charged with carrying a concealed weapon. We have guys up here who take old .455 Webleys or French Mod.1873, shave the back of cylinder and adapt them to take .45 ACP in the 3 rnd. half-moon clips. Why (you may ask) when .45 ACP is a current cartridge? Sit down for this one! The moronic government functionaries who drafted the legislation didn't know the difference between ".45 Colt" and ".45 ACP". As a result, .45 Colt is deemed, for legislative purposes, to be a modern cartridge. The .45 ACP, not being on the list, it's ok to have an antique revolver adapted to chamber it. HAHAHAHAHAHA! One of my favourite quips; Q. What's a camel? A. A horse designed by a government commitee!

 

[Exmilcop]

I've seen reload data for this caliber using Alliant Red Dot and Unique powders. Anybody had experience with these?

 

[6string]

Hi,
What a great revolver you have!
You answered my curiosity regarding the Canada laws. I used to live in Mississauga, and was a member at the Burlington Rifle and Revolver Club. Yeah, I played all the permit games there!
Anyhow, here's one more vote for genuine black powder and Starline Brass. By the way, Swiss powder is the best! (Don't be disappointed if the Fiocchi doesn't hold out too long). Also, lead bullets give up nothing in performance, especially at 44 Russian velocities. For your uses, a SWC will serve well.
If you can, try to find a local bullet caster (unless you plan to cast) who can sell you "as cast" bullets that are unlubricated, and lube with a homemade lube. If you can get "as cast" bullets in the .431-432" range, that'll work great! I use a 50/50 blend of pure beeswax and olive oil. Melt the wax in a double boiler, then add the olive oil. Adjust the blend so that when cool, it has a consistency of firm peanut butter.
This stuff works great with black powder and makes clean up easier. You'll be surprised how straightforward cleaning is when you use boiling water methods.
By the way, the corrosive primers in old black powder ammo was far more harmful than the powder itself. Modern primers work great!

I'd like to suggest that you watch some YouTube videos by "Cap and Ball". There's a wealth of info on practical black powder uses that are historical and effective.

 

[glowe]

I've seen reload data for this caliber using Alliant Red Dot and Unique powders. Anybody had experience with these?

It is well known that most target shotgun powders are a great fit for BP revolvers. Fast burning powder with an early pressure peak similar to BP allows for loads that are safe, reliable, and produce similar velocities. Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, 700X are all old tried and tested light shotgun powders that can be loaded similar to BP. Unique was around when everything was still BP and became one of the first to be used to replace black powder.

I have shot thousands of smokeless loads in BP guns and have tried all of the above powders. What one will find is that some combinations of bullet and powder may produce very good accuracy in one gun and not another so you might need to try a different powder or bullet for the next gun or caliber. My go to powder for BP guns is now Trail Boss, a high volume powder that does not allow double charging and gives very good results in both revolvers and rifles.

I might add that I have 5 pounds of BP and shoot it all the time, but regular trips to the range with a cartridge gun is not the time to show off with lots of smoke and lots of cleaning afterwards. Save it to impress your friends and fellow shooters.

I also have several flintlock rifles that I always shoot with BP, so I get plenty of smoke and smell when shooting them, especially when the wind is in my face.

 

[Exmilcop]

I'm haunting several firearms sites, some for specific specialties, and collecting all the information I can. You gentlemen on this site have been stellar!!! I thank you all! I tend to experiment with my reloading rifle with different bullet/powder combos to see what yields the best results for each rifle. Given what I've read thus far, when I get to the reloading stage it'll be Starline brass (once the Fiocchi gives out), Trail Boss or Alliant powder, and magnum pistol primers. Though I'm a fan of RCBS, I may have to get Lee dies for my .44 Russian. The Bullet Barn has good lead cast .429 & .430 bullets in several weights and nose configurations. For Canada, their prices are pretty decent and 500 would pretty much set me up for the balance of my life and probably my nephew's as well. I plan to put a beefier and more modern set of grips on the pistol to fill my hand better and provide a more positive grip plus the fact that beefier grips will be more aesthetically pleasing. I'll keep the worn originals put by and may even replace those with a set in better condition.

 

[glowe]

Don't forget to try the original bullet design for this caliber, a .429" round-nose, 246 grain. Also, I do not think you need magnum primers. I have never owned any and reload to almost 100% big bangs.

Lastly, your original set of stocks should have a serial number stamped on the inside of the right stock, if so I would not be too anxious to replace them.

 

[Exmilcop]

Don't forget to try the original bullet design for this caliber, a .429" round-nose, 246 grain. Also, I do not think you need magnum primers. I have never owned any and reload to almost 100% big bangs.

Lastly, your original set of stocks should have a serial number stamped on the inside of the right stock, if so I would not be too anxious to replace them.

I'm a pretty handy woodworker and the modification to the new set of grips to make them fit will be only to the wood. I'd never dream of getting rid of the factory original grips. They'd just be put by and the new grips would be tweaked for comfort and use.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I agree with Glowe, standard, not magnum primers! I use standard WLR with 60 to 65 grains of black powder in my 45-70 rifle! Some Smokeless rifle powders are hard to ignite in cold temperatures and need them! My 338 Lapua uses 104 grains of US869 and need them (Fed 215M primer) but a friends 50-140 Sharps ignites almost 140 grains of FFg with a WLR!

So to recap, a WLP primer will give complete and probably the most accurate ignition!

Ivan

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

DO not own a 44 Russian and have no intention of ever owning a revolver chambered in one. That being said, this has been an absolutely fascinating read just for educational and historic purposes.

 

[Carrier]

I'm haunting several firearms sites, some for specific specialties, and collecting all the information I can. You gentlemen on this site have been stellar!!! I thank you all! I tend to experiment with my reloading rifle with different bullet/powder combos to see what yields the best results for each rifle. Given what I've read thus far, when I get to the reloading stage it'll be Starline brass (once the Fiocchi gives out), Trail Boss or Alliant powder, and magnum pistol primers. Though I'm a fan of RCBS, I may have to get Lee dies for my .44 Russian. The Bullet Barn has good lead cast .429 & .430 bullets in several weights and nose configurations. For Canada, their prices are pretty decent and 500 would pretty much set me up for the balance of my life and probably my nephew's as well. I plan to put a beefier and more modern set of grips on the pistol to fill my hand better and provide a more positive grip plus the fact that beefier grips will be more aesthetically pleasing. I'll keep the worn originals put by and may even replace those with a set in better condition.

Give Randy a call at Jet Bullets. Bullet barn has new owners and I don’t know if things have changed but the ones I tried from them a few years ago were way too hard for any of my black powder guns. I solved that issue by casting myself now. Jet Bullets

 

[Exmilcop]

Give Randy a call at Jet Bullets. Bullet barn has new owners and I don’t know if things have changed but the ones I tried from them a few years ago were way too hard for any of my black powder guns. I solved that issue by casting myself now. Jet Bullets

Thank you for the "heads-up". Is there a chart or hardness scale that can be used to determine what constitutes too hard or too soft? This is my first foray into black powder firearms and lead bullets.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Thank you for the "heads-up". Is there a chart or hardness scale that can be used to determine what constitutes too hard or too soft? This is my first foray into black powder firearms and lead bullets.

Basically you want 100% lead up to a max of 95% lead / 5% tin for BP cartridges. For the 44 Russian at BP velocities 100% will give you the best expansion. When buying alloy for casting, they are sometimes labeled by percentages and sometimes in ratios. 20:1 is the 95% lead/5% tin, which is they alloy I use for long range rifles in 38-55 and 45-70. (But most of my guns have nice modern barrels) In old guns, hand gun and rifle, the exact diameter varies , even inside the barrel, so 100% will take the rifling the best and be the most accurate. That will cause the gases to stay behind the bullet, which gives the fastest and most consistent velocity for any given load.

Many commercial Casters only use one alloy or some charge a little extra for pure lead. Stick with what the gun was designed for! Pure Lead!

More modern guns develop leading in the rifling at higher velocities with soft bullets, this is not an issue at Black Powder Velocities!

Ivan

 

[Exmilcop]

I looked at the Bullet Barn site here in Canada (Alberta). It's list their hardness on the Brinell hardness level at 25. Is this bad or acceptable?

 

[ddixie884]

That is harder than the hubs of hades.............

 

[Exmilcop]

That is harder than the hubs of hades.............

Thank you for the "heads-up". I've since sourced soft lead bullets up here in Canada and won't be buying from the Bullet Barn. On a pleasant note, Jet bullets are readily available in Canada AND they make a 240gr. hollow point! Given that I was looking for a "stopper" round for bush carry, that sounds like just the ticket. Another question, on the Firearms forum, another gentleman from Texas states that he's had good results with Alliant Unique. Any of you lot tried that?

 

[ddixie884]

I have no experience with Black Powder but It will get more velocity with less pressure than any smokeless powder. Unique is a great powder but it will produce pressure along with the exceptional performance and may overstress your weaker, hinged iron frame. Just be careful and go slow..................

 

[glowe]

I have no experience with Black Powder but It will get more velocity with less pressure than any smokeless powder. Unique is a great powder but it will produce pressure along with the exceptional performance and may overstress your weaker, hinged iron frame. Just be careful and go slow..................

Absolutely incorrect! Full load pressures of BP in any caliber can be matched easily with smokeless powder. One thing that must be understood is that BP is designed to be loaded with a case full to the bottom of the bullet and that is the proper way to load BP cartridges. Only way to reduce BP loading is to use wads to fill the case with less powder.

To reduce the pressure of smokeless, you only need to reduce the amount of powder in the case, all the way down to a published minimum load which will be much lower pressures than full-boat BP cartridges. Read your reloading manual and you will find that you can find smokeless powder loads listed that are much lower than BP pressures.

The original BP loads for the 44 Russian were 12,000 CUP, up from 8,000 CUP for the earlier 44 American. The velocity of 44 Russian was 750 fps.

If you look for loads today, you can find the following data:

240g LRN 44 Russian

Trail Boss loading - - - from 8800 CUP to 10,000 CUP
- 604 fps to 661 fps
Clays - - - - - - - - - - -from 9400 CUP to 10,700 CUP
- 711 fps to 769 fps

Trail Boss was designed to produce low pressures and velocities for Cowboy Action shooting, so lower pressures and velocities are listed. Clays and Unique are relatively fast burning powder and one would expect the pressures and velocities to be similar. Unfortunately, Alliant does not list pressures for their 44 Russian loads.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I've seen reload data for this caliber using Alliant Red Dot and Unique powders. Anybody had experience with these?

Alliant website has data for 200 gr bullets. American Select (3.3 grns to start) would be my choice as the velocity is lower than any of the others they list. Red Dot and Unique are two others. AS is a relatively new powder but I've been a big fan as it loads my 9 mm, 45 ACP and 38 spl. exclusively.

 

[Nagloc68]

Fantastic thread, thanks for the great debate and information. I did print it out per some excellent advice! I recently picked up a New Model 3 in 44 Russian. While it IS NOT my every day revolver, I do enjoy occasionally shooting all my collection, even a 140 year old revolver! Many components are not available, but my goal is to reload a traditional BP load with all lead bullet. Make it as traditional and safe as possible. Time to put myself on various "notification" lists. Thank you again.