reloading 44mag with Bullseye

[bwxmas]

Yeah, yeah, no worries. I was just shocked as to how different their data is then vs now. I used Hodgdons data for W231 for 200gr in a 44 Mag case. Their max load barely got the bullet out of the barrel. Unburned powder everywhere. Went back a few decades to the older info, and problem solved.

Thats why I have 20-25 manuals. I like looking at the old manuals, they pushed pretty hard.
Look at the old Data, and tell me the 44 special is in ANYWAY comparable to the 44 mag with Bullseye. The mag would stomp it, and take its girlfriend
I choose to go a different route with max loads, but if I only had Bullseye, I'd be good.

 

[alwslate]

Jellybean gave you good advice. Alliant's data for the 44 mag gives
velocity attained in their 5.7" test barrel and the velocity from your
revolver will vary one way or another from theirs. You can use Bullseye
to load to magnum pressure levels but you won't see true 44 magnum
velocity unless you use a slower powder. But...so what? If Bullseye is
all you have then you make do and enjoy.

 

[The Handgunner]

Thank you all

To all persons who did the effort to answer to my question, thank you very much for the warnings and the good advice.

one of the problems to get gunpowder in my country is that the law is restricted. Regular gunshops can only have maximum 2 kilo's of gunpowder in their shop... so they don't have a wide range of choise. If they want a bigger stock, they have to build a bunker. So, only a few distributers have a bunker and more choise.

I reload a few years, but only 357mag and .44/40 , always with the same powder and loads . Which are also tested and used by my buddies . But I'm the only-one who 's starting to reload 44magnum. In a listing of calibers for the Bullseye, was .44mag also mensioned. But with cast lead bullets. I did not realise there was so much diffrence when loading Semi Jacketed bullets.

I understand that the Bullseye is meant for light loads as 38 and 44 special, with lead bullets. For magnum loads I will look for a more ideal gunpowder. I will adress myself to a serious reloading-shop, even if I have to go to The Netherlands for it.I am a warned man now. That's the least I can say. So thanks again.

greetings from over the Atlantic Ocean

The Handgunner from Belgium ( still with both hands )

 

[aurora40]

Just FYI:

Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide

They have loads listed for .44 Mag, Special, Russian, and 44-40 with Bullseye. In many cases only one load, and none are what one would associate with "Magnum", but there they are.

 

[Jellybean]

dla, sorry for the omission, if you didn't see the answer to your question in the above posts, the barrel length is 5.7".

Thats why I have 20-25 manuals. I like looking at the old manuals, they pushed pretty hard.
Look at the old Data, and tell me the 44 special is in ANYWAY comparable to the 44 mag with Bullseye. The mag would stomp it, and take its girlfriend
I choose to go a different route with max loads, but if I only had Bullseye, I'd be good.

We've had many discussions on this forum about reloading manuals, and it is surprising how so many people haven't learned much from them. Having a slew of them doesn't do much more than give you different loads of the same combinations, other than that they are pretty much the same, basic information. The information they don't have would fill a library, or at least a few good books.

Since this thread isn't about them, I'm going to try and stay on topic. Loads aren't judged by velocity, they are judged by pressure. Bullseye is one of the most potent powders we have and with relatively small doses it can easily attain magnum pressure levels, or above, and there are plenty of one eyed, one handed shooters that will agree with me. It's burning rate and individual combustion characteristics aren't ideal for attaining the highest velocity before it reaches maximum pressures in every situation, but it will work and will work in a lot of other applications that it wasn't intended for as well.

 

[Warren Sear]

I load for the 44 Russian, 44 Special, 44-40, and 44 Magnum, all with cast bullets. My powder of choice for the Russian is Trail Boss, as my revolver is an antique (M1883 German Reichsrevolver). I use 8.0 grains of Unique in my 44-40 and 44 Specials. I use 2400 in my 44 Magnums.

At one time or another, I have used Bullseye in all of these cartridges with no problem. However, as noted earlier in this thread, you must be very diligent to not over (double) charge a case. I never have: I charge 50 cases with powder, one at a time, from a bench-mounted powder measure. As each case is loaded, I place it into a loading block. When all 50 cases are in place I shine a flashlight into each case to visually check for a double charge. Then I place a bullet on each case, and seat them. This method has worked successfully for me since 1980.

 

[Forrest r]

A link to a article wrote by Ed Harris that has his bullseye/44mag test loads and data.

Pretty good reading.

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/44magmediumvelocity.htm

 

[venomballistics]

Gave it an honest read
I agree with the essence, but not the approach.
BE just never really comes into focus till you are trying to tame a full wadcutter.
I've burned many powders, and all roads lead to unique.
It lands in a useful range of potency and remains an easy shooting, trouble free load you can hold some faith in under all but the heaviest conditions you'd dare ask of the 44 magnum.
Every 44 loader owes it to themselves to become familiar with it, or it's equivalent.

Try not to make due. The objective is still to make ammo, despite the shortage.

 

[alwslate]

I agree with Ed Harris's approach to loading the 44 mag to midrange
velocities for most shooting. Cast lead bullets are best for these loads
and my efforts have focused on 250 gr SWCs. Bullseye is a great
powder for this application and one charge he lists, 7.8 grs gives a
desirable midrange velocity of approx 950 fps in my 4" S&W 29-2s.
Any fast burning powder could be dangerous if double charged but
that is not a fault of the powder.

 

[Jellybean]

Unique is a great powder...and so is Bullseye, and their greatness comes from the same property, an extremely wide tolerance. Regardless of what they may have been "designed" to do, they are both very flexible. They are both good for light pistol or rifle loads but can be used for heavier applications as well. This is where the loading manuals are failing to educate reloaders, they have limited space and an even more limited purpose.

Warren Sear, I used to reload using the same process as you, which is found in all the loading manuals. After starting to use a lot of Bullseye in very small charges, I found a way which works better for me. I charge a case, seat a bullet on top of it, then after all of them are done I crimp as needed. My bench is set up to work this way and it actually saves time not having to look in all those cases with a flashlight to see if a case is overcharged or not.

 

[4barrel]

Hello Handgunner & greetings & happy holidays from TEXAS. I don't use Bullseye in my 44 but I do have a LEE RELOADING second edition that has the mag info on fast powder. Like most people said-I would load them 1 at a time. Actually the Bullseye load looks like a lower pressure load on this page. It doesn't say what length barrel this was tested with.

 

[jimbo728]

44-40

Yes, Bullseye works very well in light 44-40 Winchester loads. You did not list the bullet weight you intend to use, or if it is lead or jacketed. You can send me a PM with that information, and I will send you that data. What kind of 44-40 do you have? I have an Uberti Colt SAA copy.

Bullseye will work for light 44 Magnum loads, preferably with a lead bullet.

I,after testing many loads, have settled on 14.7gr of 2400 with a 200gr cast flat point for.44-40. My rifle is a Model 92. Works great. I have had that rifle 36 years. In a .44-40 SAA revolver with a 200gr lead bullet, 5gr of 231 or HP38 would be sweet. I have shot those in Cowboy shoots. Very pleasant.
My remarks about the use of Bullseye in .44Mag and .44-40 Win,were my opinions, as I stated. I stand by them. Save the Bullseye for .38 spl and 9mm. Its way fast burning and works best in smaller volume cases. Much less risk of accidental double charge if the larger cases are charged with 2400.
Again, this is just the rule I live by.
Similar loads with IMR 4227 can be substituted if 2400 is unavailable. Im an old guy, so Im sure there are many newer powders that work well in .44 and perform better than Bullseye. Bullseye is a great powder. In .38, it won many matches for me. But not in .44`s.
I guess this means I would not put 13" tires on a `67 Vette either.
Jim

 

[Jellybean]

...Actually the Bullseye load looks like a lower pressure load on this page. It doesn't say what length barrel this was tested with.

I'm not a big fan of the Lee Modern reloading manuals as their few redeeming qualities don't outweigh their faults.

While most data sources list data that is all tested on the same equipment in the same facility to give you an apples to apples comparison, Lee just takes all their data and lumps it together on the same page to give you an apples to cake comparison. Components, test equipment and test conditions are all varied from one load to the next. That is why some loads are listed with pressures in CUP's while other are in PSI. The data is "good" as it is from a reputable source but they omit a lot of information that many reloaders like to see.

 

[4barrel]

Handgunner said that Bullseye was all the powder he had. I posted a page of what he ask for. I am not twisting any ones arm to use it. He said Powder was scarce in Belgium & you have to use what you can get. Read his post #23.

 

[bwxmas]

4Barrel.
Did you really expect anything else?
What I learned from this thread.
1) Only give out advice that is in manuals for safety purposes.
2) Manuals are Useless, no matter how many you have.
3) There is no easy answer to a question, it must take at least 27 steps to get there, because some opinions are facts, that have not made it into a book yet.

 

[Jellybean]

Handgunner said that Bullseye was all the powder he had. I posted a page of what he ask for. I am not twisting any ones arm to use it. He said Powder was scarce in Belgium & you have to use what you can get. Read his post #23.

I wasn't criticizing your post, you gave the exact same information I did. I was just trying to help you understand the last part of your statement about barrel length and relative pressure differences, the part of your statement I quoted.

 

[4barrel]

Richard Lee got his info from Alliant? Maybe Alliant has the barrel length they tested with? I have 20+ manuals 60s up but haven't run across barrel length or firearms tested for Bullseye magnum loads @ 1200 or so. 38 target loads are all I use it for anyway. I only have about 6 pounds left. I hope I live long enough to use it all. I don't think Lee does testing on firearms & uses other peoples data. I enjoy your posts Jellybean.

 

[Jellybean]

Richard Lee got his info from Alliant?

Absolutely, compare the data from the Lee manual to the Alliant data bwxmas posted above, exact same max. charge, exact same pressure, exact same velocity. You will notice that Lee does list starting charges for data that didn't include it originally. What he does is reduce the load by about 10%, which most data sources suggest, and then he goes up to the lowest charge his powder dispensing equipment can deliver, which is sometimes the same as the max. load.

Maybe Alliant has the barrel length they tested with?

Yes they do, it's in the same chart above.

I have 20+ manuals 60s up but haven't run across barrel length or firearms tested for Bullseye magnum loads @ 1200 or so.

I have few manuals myself, let me know which ones you are referring to and maybe I can help you find it. There were manuals that didn't give barrel length due to the fact that they didn't feel it was needed. They knew that too many people would try to up their charges until they got what they should be getting, or just didn't feel the extra space was warrented. Eventually most manuals do include this information now because of demand from their readers.

I don't think Lee does testing on firearms & uses other peoples data.

He does "testing", but the load data in his manuals are not from him. He had an article in his first edition of Modern Reloading that he claimed was quoted from Vhitavouri. I looked all over to find the original source of the quote so I could read the entire work, but no body at Vhitavouri knew where it was supposed to be from. Finally I emailed Lee Precision and asked them, the reply was from Vhitavouris second edition reloading manual. That's funny because I have a copy of it and can't find anything close to what he said. This article was not included in the second edition of Modern Reloading.

... I enjoy your posts Jellybean.

Thank you very much, and may you and yours have a Merry Christmas.

 

[Willeys]

I have used bullseye for small capacity brass such as 9mm or 45acp. For large capacity brass I use 2400 which is a slow burning powder for magnum loads. When I want a sub-magnum load behind lead bullet I use Unique.

 

[Forrest r]

Starting in 2008 alliant manuals leave much to be desired. A link to the alliant 2005 manual.

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/RM/Alliant/Alliant_2005.pdf

I've use this manual allot, starting loads are 10% of the (MAX) loads listed. The 2005 manual also lists bbl lengths in them ,5.7" for the 44mags.

It never ceases to amaze me that the 44mag/loads always seem to have the same 2 trains of thought.

The 44mag has to be loaded to cannon blast/knock tall building down in a single shot.
Don't use bullseye because of double charges.

Well I can honestly say you don't need the mega mag loads for most 44mag applications. A 265gr bullet doing 1075fps/1100fps in a 44mag will not only punch holes in paper but they will punch holes in allot of paper. A jackets 265gr hp chronographed (10ft from muzzle) shot into 9" of wet (soaked for 24 hours) newspapers bundled tightly and set out @ 25yds.



They had no problem going thru the 9"'s of paper. That's with a hp no less, opening/slowing it down. I'd like to see any of the gotta be full house loads with mag powders only crowd put their shirt with the big "S" on and go down to the 25yd or 100yd line with their catchers mitts and I'll toss a couple their way. They can catch them & tell me how wimpy that load is.



If people are afraid of double charges than reloading might not be in their best interests to begin with. I'm amazed that people say they don't recommend bullseye in the 44mag for this reason but they'll recommend unique. Weeeelllll, unique & bullseye don't fall far from the same tree. The heavier the bullets for the 44mag, the closer the powder chargers are. An extremely popular bullet for the 44mag, the lee 310gr rnfp.



The difference in the max loads between bullseye & unique is .4gr. And yes, bullseye will go head to head with unique and this bullet. Alliant lists a 310gr swc load and bullseye out performs unique (975fps vs 965fps). But with this bullet (lee 310gr rnfp) I found them to be even in 2 different 44mags.

After reading this whole thread I just shook my head;

Every load for the 44mag doesn't have to be "full house" only.
If bullseye is the only powder around then enjoy, it will work.
If you can't load something without double charging it then maybe you should take up another hobby.

Playing around with 5 different bullets and 6 different powders (yes bullseye was 1 of them) easily produced 15 different loads that would do head shots on squirrels @ 25yds. No drama, no double charges, just x-ring accuracy.



Enjoy your bullseye in the 44mag, it will give you excellent target grade accuracy & the ability to step up to put some thumpers down range.