Reloading during a self defense situation

[Fastbolt]

Like other manipulations involving a firearm, loading (same thing as "reloading") requires practice and is a perishable skill/technique. Learning how to do it safely, properly and effectively is a skillset & practice choice.

Not having spare ammunition seems as though it would fall under the heading of "available tactics".

In other words, you can choose to limit your choices by choosing not to learn, practice & maintain a skill .. or you choose to deny yourself the opportunity to use that skill, if ever needed. Risk management and informed decision-making.

If you ever need to be able to reload a pistol or revolver, or resolve a mag-related stoppage by using an other magazine ... and you're able to do so skill-wise, but didn't have the spare speedloader, speedstrip or magazine ... then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

I generally don't fall back on using statistics, polls or other "what do you think" reasoning when making my own decisions.

FWIW, I mostly try to carry 1 spare magazine (sometimes 2) when carrying a pistol as a retirement CCW, and 1-3 speedstrips or speedloaders when carrying one of my 5-shot revolvers (depending on clothing and planned activity choices). Don't ask me "why" the disparity of magazines to speedloaders/strips, as it's just something I've done for so many years that I don't actually stop to consider the reason for the difference. Back in the day of carrying a service revolver, since my gun belt had a double speedloader carrier, that pretty much resulted in me carrying a pair of speedloaders off-duty. The speedstrips just made it easier over time.

However, when I slip my LCP into a pocket holster, I may not be carrying a spare mag (due to tight/restrictive pockets lending themselves to the LCP versus the J-frame, in the first place) unless I'm also wearing a light jacket, coat, vest, etc. Some front pants pockets won't accept the spare mag in the same pocket as the pocket holstered LCP ... and if I have that much spare room in a pocket, I'll usually resort to pocket holstering a J-frame and a speedstrip.

I mostly carry the LCP when I don't reasonably anticipate a potential threat, but don't quite feel like going unarmed.

The diminutive size of the LCP (especially the ultra short grip) and its magazines, and the difficulty of loading it and running the slide to restore chambered-ready-to-fire condition, makes it more difficult & slow to do, especially under demanding conditions.

As an instructor working with both LE (mostly) and armed private citizens (CCW licensees numbering in a few hundred) over the years, I've noticed that it's not uncommon to see a fair number of off-duty cops, and a significant number of private citizens, who don't choose to carry spare ammunition.

Then again, in a couple of training seminars I attended in recent years I've heard that there's apparently some statistics available which seemingly indicate that only as much as 20% of actively employed cops even carry an off-duty weapon. That said, I'd like to hope that with the state of current affairs we've been seeing in recent years, at both the national and international levels, that more actively employed and honorably retired LE are deciding to carry off-duty & retirement CCW's.

I have seen what appears to be more of my peers who are getting ready for retirement, and those recently who are retired, either bringing out older "off-duty" weapons they've had collecting dust for years, or buying newer & smaller pistols and revolvers, and qualifying with them.

As usual, no definitive "answers", but just some thoughts and experiences.

 

[Duckford]

Statistics are a hell of a thing. They are only pieces of information that help us in making decisions, they are utterly worthless otherwise. Only ten people a year are killed by sharks, which indicates you should go the beach, just normal, and not worry about sharks eating you. On the other hand, if you lose the lottery, and a great white is gnawing away are your leg and torso, I doubt the statistic will be of any comfort or use to you.

Remember the Detroit woman who defended her house with a Hi Point carbine? In the video, one of the thugs actually tries to "COME BACK into the house after being shot at? Even after facing lethal defensive force, the idiot has the balls/aggression to come back to attack again. Such criminals, with such bold actions, do back up the concept of having plenty of ammunition, and debunks the idea that all criminals always run, every single time, and that the fight is always over immediately after self defense shots or actions are used. As a civilian, you will probably never have to worry about such, but to dismiss it, well, is more boastful than wise.

Statistics and over conservative under gunning and arming has gotten a lot of good officers killed, as well illustrated by many incidents. "You don't need those new fangled speedloaders, just stick to your dump pouches. Not like you'll ever need your service pistol anyways" held sway until high profile shootouts like Newhall illustrated that rapid reloading could, perhaps, be a factor. The FBI"s report on the ever loving Miami shootout also made point that the officers didn't even seem to take it seriously, leaving protective vests and shotguns in the back seat, rather than at the ready for a real shootout.

The woman in the attic defending her kids, as mentioned, Barry Fixler's jewelry store robbery (easily found on Youtube), and the citizen who was carjacked after the Newhall massacre, all show citizens who fired revolvers in self defense, emptying them, than being in potential trouble after running out. The man with the crowbar was heavily wounded, but not enough to crawl to his vehicle before being fully incapacitated, the jewelry store robber had his handgun under his arms as he laid wounded in the jewelry store's door while the owner threatened him with an unloaded pistol, and the citizen carjacked was lucky to only be pistol whipped and tossed out, in each case respectively. The danger in the first two scenarios is, if a very aggressive criminal, which many violent criminals are, calls the bluff of the empty pistol, the victim may suffer a far worse fate than the three cases listed here. Whereas a loaded firearm may still be real force to end the fight, the bluff may be called, and the innocent may suffer or die.

The main point is, if you ever do get into a self defense situation, there is no such thing as excessive force, or to much weapon, to save the life of an innocent, and in that situation, would you rather be over armed and prepared, or lacking? If some creeps actually did break into your house, and attacked your family, would you feel ridiculous for having a big battle rifle with 20 round loaded magazines in your hands, or would you be glad you have the advantage? Would you calmly talk to the burglars and explain to them that statistics say that this thing does not happen often, and all you should need to deal with them is a five shot snub nose revolver?

If you are ever in a violent struggle to save an innocent life, will you want every advantage you have, or will the wit and banter of internet denizens on this forum, and a load of statistics?

Under arming is self righteous, better than thou, I'm a reasonable guy and you are some crazy extremist mentality that people engage in while safe from the actual threat at worst, and "I don't feel like weighing myself down with extras" at best.

 

[Smoke]

There was the young mother hiding in her attic with children who emptied her 5 shot revolver into the BG.
I may be wrong, but I don't think he died, at least then and there, he left.
True, there was only one BG and 5 did the job. But just barely.
I would hate to be in that situation and out of ammo.
That's just me, though.

I don't know that you can say five did the job because she still had to threaten him with more shots (even if she didn't have them to fire)

 

[hannstv]

This one? Looks like he gave up after being hit in the face five times. I'll grant you, she may have run out of bullets, but she was also out of bad guys. From every account I read, he was tired of getting shot:

Georgian Mom Shoots Home Intruder in Face

How does one guy stay in one place long enough to get shot five times in the face? She was a good shot and he was really hard headed.

 

[vito]

This is another of those never-to-be-resolved issues. You could carry three guns with 5 reloads for each, but come up with a scenario where that would still not be enough ammo. Or you can play the odds that you will likely need zero rounds for self defense for your entire life and so carrying a j-frame with 5, or even a Derringer with 2 is probably reasonable preparation.

Maybe because I am a relatively new carrier, only 6 months since I received my concealed carry license, I still find that I have to think about what I am wearing, what gun will be easy to conceal without showing or printing, and in what type of holster. Only if I am traveling far from home, where I carry a camera-type shoulder bag to keep other essentials in (cell phone, sunglasses, face tissues, keys, etc.) do I throw in another mag or a speed strip.

If the 5 or 8 rounds that I have in the gun is not enough, well, I made my choices and then I have to live with the consequences.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

Our professional military son would carry an Abrams tank and a B-52, if he could. I've seen him off-load five guns! Talk about paranoia . . ..

So that's what's wrong with me.

I find myself just carrying a J-Frame and a speed strip more and more, unless I'm going on the road.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

An alternative to shoot-and-reload is shoot-and-run. Unlike police officers, civilians don't have to actually capture that bad guy, they just have to escape.

Well, I'm not going to outrun anyone, so I guess it's "Root, hog, or die!" Or, the bad guy could escape..., but I'd worry that he was trying to flank me.

 

[JH1951]

This is another of those never-to-be-resolved issues. You could carry three guns with 5 reloads for each, but come up with a scenario where that would still not be enough ammo. Or you can play the odds that you will likely need zero rounds for self defense for your entire life and so carrying a j-frame with 5, or even a Derringer with 2 is probably reasonable preparation.

Sometimes the line between 'combat ready' and 'self protection' gets blurry. This goes for me, too. I sometimes must remind myself that I am not going for a walk in a battle zone where I need my M16 and as many handguns as I can carry, but rather I'm going for a walk in the borough park. In some places they are beginning to resemble each other, too, I guess.

 

[WR Moore]

A couple of comments.

First, a few folks have mentioned sticking a magazine in their pockets. If you don't have it in some kind of pouch, what you'll do is remove all the lint from your pockets and store it in your magazine. This will positively result in feed failures.

Now that I've returned.....the other item is documented rounds per aggressor. There aren't really any widely circulated statistically significant and clearly documented stats on civilian shootings. The best we can do is look at LE encounters. NYPD (who forms the mass of the stats anyway) show that rounds per aggressor (rpa) range from about 3.5 to 4.7 per encounter. In actual gunfights, the rpa goes up to the 6.2-8.7 per encounter. This does not bode well for the no reloads group even if mechanical glitchs aren't in the picture.

Granted, most folks won't have a need at all, many no need to fire and those that do may well take care of the problem with rounds to spare. You'd do well not to count on it. As an example, I've been the intended victim of roughly 6 (I've kinda lost count over the decades) armed robbery attempts. I've been lucky, my would be attackers were sensible folks. These days, common sense seems to be lacking in criminal offenders. Gangs have also became wide spread.

Your gunfight, your choices.

 

[Fastbolt]

A couple of comments.

First, a few folks have mentioned sticking a magazine in their pockets. If you don't have it in some kind of pouch, what you'll do is remove all the lint from your pockets and store it in your magazine. This will positively result in feed failures.

No kidding.

Such things can present an irresistible 'home' that attracts dust bunnies.

After I started carrying LCP, I happened to discover that one of the cigar lighter holsters I used with my DuPont torch lighters, a very stiff fabric one, snugly fit my spare mag.

Wish I knew the brand of the lighter holster, as the club no longer carries them. Figures, right?

 

[Don 73]

Just to add 'another' two cents to the issue, we are ALWAYS trained/told to reload after an encounter. The last thing you want is for something else to hit the fan and have you just standing there with your pants down and smoke curling out from your barrel AND ejection port as you stand there with your gun locked open and empty.

 

[Protected One]

No kidding.

Such things can present an irresistible 'home' that attracts dust bunnies.

After I started carrying LCP, I happened to discover that one of the cigar lighter holsters I used with my DuPont torch lighters, a very stiff fabric one, snugly fit my spare mag.

Wish I knew the brand of the lighter holster, as the club no longer carries them. Figures, right?

Just do a Google search for cigar lighter cases and then click "images". I'm confident you will find yours.
I use a Lotus torch w/built in cutter.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Using police shooting incidents and equipment as a guide isn't for me. I'm just a guy walking my dog at the park. I ain't busting down doors or pursuing anyone. Down in Miami, the cops unloaded 116 rounds on a guy in a car. That's 25 speed strips for my 642!

Most of the cops around here wear vests. I'm sure that would be very handy to have in a gunfight, particularly one that required reloading. No thanks.

For me, carrying multiple guns and reloads would be the equivelant of hobby carry or mall ninja. I'm just a guy walking my dog at the park.

 

[WR Moore]

And I challenge you to find an example of a CCW holder in a a critical incident who ran out of bullets before he ran out of bad guys. Like the "blood in the streets" predictions of CCW opponents, it just doesn't happen . . .

Actually, I believe I may have one. Evan Marshall got home one night and got sent to the local stop n rob for milk before he even got in the door. Once at the store he discovered he had a J frame, no extra ammo and had walked into a holdup. Worse, one recognized him as a cop. He's stated the only reason he survived was that a tac unit stopped for coffee while the festivities were in progress.

Then there's Lance Thomas(?). LA jewelry store owner who was involved in mulitple gunfights, sometimes with multiple perps. OK, wasn't really CCW, but it was defensive shooting and he used NY reloads. I believe by the time he changed his business model to mail order/appointment only, he'd shot 7 attackers. There were major station televised interviews at the time complete with instore video of several of the gunfights.

 

[vito]

Everyone needs to find their own comfort level. It is possible to imagine scenarios where multiple reloads, or multiple guns would not have been adequate.

I often pocket carry, so my right front pocket is utilized for my carry gun/holster and nothing else. To carry a reload means either wearing some type of pouch on my belt or putting the reload (mag, speed strip, speed loader or loose rounds) in the left front pocket. I will not mix ammo with other items like keys, cell phone, pocket knife, etc. so carrying a reload for me means having no convenient way to carry the other items that I need and use routinely.

Sometimes I do carry a Coronado leather cross carry bag, which you might call a murse, and when I do I always include a reload since it is then pretty convenient to do so.

But most of the time I carry just my loaded EDC, which is most often a 5-round 38+p j-frame snubbie or a compact 8 round 9mm semi-auto. And foolishly or not, depending on your sense of comfort, I never feel ill prepared for what might be encountered.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Atlanta, 2013 a woman during a home invasion. She hid in her attic with her children. She shot the man five times, he survived. She bluffed and threatend to shoot more with her empty gun.

Story has been debated here for months. In her home, not a CCW situation. Try again.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Actually, I believe I may have one. Evan Marshall got home one night and got sent to the local stop n rob for milk before he even got in the door. Once at the store he discovered he had a J frame, no extra ammo and had walked into a holdup. Worse, one recognized him as a cop. He's stated the only reason he survived was that a tac unit stopped for coffee while the festivities were in progress.

Then there's Lance Thomas(?). LA jewelry store owner who was involved in mulitple gunfights, sometimes with multiple perps. OK, wasn't really CCW, but it was defensive shooting and he used NY reloads. I believe by the time he changed his business model to mail order/appointment only, he'd shot 7 attackers. There were major station televised interviews at the time complete with instore video of several of the gunfights.

So neither of these were CCW shoots, and neither ran out of ammo. Thanks for trying to play..

 

[ClayCow]

I never carry reloads. Youre right muss, it approaches LEO/Mil which i dont think is necessary. Gun businesses and capitalism have drilled fear into our minds of "what if". Its a pretty succesful marketing ploy, much like security systems in peoples home. No greater motivator than your own "safety".

 

[breakerofwind]

I spent a couple of years working in the armored car industry and carried a loaded pistol upwards of 14 hours a day and I guarantee that thing got heavy after awhile. I carried only what the pistol would hold, 10 in the mag, 1 in the chamber. There was no need for extra ammunition.

If I'm doing my job properly, I should see the situation developing with enough time to take appropriate action. And, if I have enough time to draw my pistol, aim and shoot (without endangering any innocents who may be in the area), then I have enough time to run for safety. And, my religion demands I do just that. You see, I am a devout coward.

Based on that, carrying the extra weight of reloads is unnecessary and takes up space on my belt that I could use to stash the odd Twinkie for a quick snake.

 

[Rastoff]

...if I have enough time to draw my pistol, aim and shoot (without endangering any innocents who may be in the area), then I have enough time to run for safety.

No, if it takes you that long to know your background, present the gun and aim, then you need more practice and maybe some training. If you're a devout coward, and are going to put more emphasis on running than effectively defending yourself (not necessarily a bad idea) then why are you carrying a gun?

If the gun is getting heavy after 14 hours, I suggest your carry rig needs to be examined. I've worn my gun, and extra mag, for longer than that and don't find it uncomfortable at all.

Again, the main purpose for an extra mag is in the event of a malfunction. More ammo is always good, but usually not necessary.