reloads and the law

[Jellybean]

jack oconner, I wasn't trying to be offensive in any way towards you. If it appeared that way I apologize.

Imagine having a discussion with your friend for about 20 pages on a forum.

If there are no laws forbidding the use of reloads in the shooting situation, the shooter can not be charged with anything pertaining to them. You must have violated a law or ordinance to be accused or charged.

There are some that will tell you that the use of reloads will cause unscrupulous prosecutors to call you all sorts of bad names, but that would be a big mistake if your attorney is worth a... as it would hurt them more than help them. The same goes for a civil trial.

The "famous law officer" Skip, (smith crazy), mentioned is a member here and had participated in one or two of the previous discussions. He said the real reason to not use reloads is because there is no "exemplar" evidence to back you up. (Most ammo factories keep very detailed records of their ammunition based on the lot numbers marked on the box. If they know the lot number on the ammunition you used in a shooting they can provide test samples or information pertaining to ballistics tests without destroying the ammunition in evidence.) The problem with his article on the subject was that in the case he used for an example the suspects "innocence" was highly questionable and his use of reloaded ammunition really didn't have anything to do with his being found guilty. It appeared as though his attorney was trying to get testimony introduced that would create enough reasonable doubt that the jury couldn't find him guilty. But for a person that really is innocent, the lack of exemplar evidence might be a good thing.

 

[parabarbarian]

IANAL but the ammunition you use is unlikely to be relevant in a criminal case. I don't know of a single self defense case where it has been an issue. Any criminal case will hinge entirely on whether you were justified in using deadly force. If you have decided you will use deadly force to defend yourself, have ready the name and number of an attorney who know how to handle self defense cases.

From reading about self defense cases I've gleaned the following:

If you do shoot someone, call the cops, tell them you shot an attacker and give them your address. Put the gun in a safe place in a safe condition. Do not put it in your regular safe unless there is no other option (I have a small handgun safe in the living room and another in the den). When the cops arrive, do not say anything to them beyond:

1. I was attacked
2. I didn't do anything wrong
3. I want to talk to an attorney
4. I do not consent to any searches

Do not provide any information except on advice of counsel. A digital voice or video recorder is a good idea but check on the legalities in your area.

 

[armadillo]

It probably doesn't matter. But, if you have any doubts there is plenty of good factory stuff you can buy.

As for me, I asked an ammo dealer what he recommeded for self-defense - I bought 2 boxes and that is what I carry. When it comes to the criminal justice system any set of facts can be made to mean the exact opposit of what really happened.

There is a house I drive by regularly that has a sign in the yard that says "Protected by the Texas Castle Law." Every time I see it I think of some prosecutor using that as evidence of "premeditation" someday.

 

[Jellybean]

My "BS" meter just went off scale and fell on the floor.

Police and prosecutors use BS meters too, although they don't always keep them calibrated very well. They don't usually dig too deep unless their BS meters go off when the story you tell them doesn't match with the evidence they collect.

There is nothing wrong with asking to speak to your attorney first, but be careful with how you act. If they feel you are being hostile or evasive toward them, that might set their BS meters off too. If you are really innocent or justified, tell the truth, and nothing but the truth, the evidence will back you up. But if you try to overjustify your actions or try to fudge in your favor and the evidence doesn't bear everything out, it might work against you, even if you are innocent.

 

[M29since14]

You will never find a higher concentration of liars anywhere than in a courthouse, IMO. From what little I have seen, an honest man hasn't a chance. In the "legal system," being honest in no way guarantees the system will leave you alone. The truth is no substitute for competent legal representation.

 

[nitesite]

So...

What if I shoot a home invader with reloaded shotgun ammunition, say a high brass 2-3/4" 12-ga load of 1-1/8 ounce #4

Can anybody even tell?

 

[pat g]

Let see you shot somebody the least or your worries is the ammunition you used. Your and your family alive bad guy dead, good ending.

 

[CrossRifles2008]

Look use what ammo you feel comfortable protecting yourself with. Like my farther always said "Better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6."

 

[5906fan]

if any question arose concerning the ammo used in a s-d shooting I'd tell 'em I bought it at the fun show 'because it was cheap' years ago.
my sympathys jive with M29since 14

 

[Cpo1944]

IANAL but the ammunition you use is unlikely to be relevant in a criminal case. I don't know of a single self defense case where it has been an issue. Any criminal case will hinge entirely on whether you were justified in using deadly force. If you have decided you will use deadly force to defend yourself, have ready the name and number of an attorney who know how to handle self defense cases.

From reading about self defense cases I've gleaned the following:

If you do shoot someone, call the cops, tell them you shot an attacker and give them your address. Put the gun in a safe place in a safe condition. Do not put it in your regular safe unless there is no other option (I have a small handgun safe in the living room and another in the den). When the cops arrive, do not say anything to them beyond:

1. I was attacked
2. I didn't do anything wrong
3. I want to talk to an attorney
4. I do not consent to any searches

Do not provide any information except on advice of counsel. A digital voice or video recorder is a good idea but check on the legalities in your area.

Good advise I hope in time of crisis I would remain clear headed enough to remember it. Actually it would be a good idea to train all of the household members and keep a check list by the phone.

Put it big print: say this , do not say this!

My office has to maintain our certification credentials, and even though we complain about it - we practice fire drills and med emergencies twice a year. That way everyone knows where to go and what his or her responsibilities are. It avoids lots of confusion

Might be wise to practice a home invasion also, especially if there are very many folks living there, knowing what to do might prevent a mishap or save a life.

 

[Jc85]

good advice above.
Just to chime in, Say nothing.
"anything you say can and WILL be used against you." it doesn't read
"anything you say might be used against you, unless your a really friendly guy and tell the police officer everything."

 

[aquagear]

I was advised by a friend who is an Attorney, to find out what ammo the local P.D is using and carry that. If it is good enough for them it is good enough for me. The only argument I can see for not using hand loads, is the fact that an attorney might try to claim that you had loaded some super deadly round. You have to be confident in what you carry, it is your choice. I for one would not want to give a lawyer in a civil case any advantage at all. I cary factory ammo.( Just my two cents)

 

[parabarbarian]

good advice above.
Just to chime in, Say nothing.
"anything you say can and WILL be used against you." it doesn't read
"anything you say might be used against you, unless your a really friendly guy and tell the police officer everything."

+1

I know you will want to cooperate with the cops. Consider that, after a shooting you will have post action jitters, your hearing will be temporarily impaired and you may be suffering from conflicting strong emotions. That last is especially true if one of your family or you were injured. In short, you will be in an altered state of mind. It is a very bad idea to talk to the police in such a state. Cardinal Richelieu is supposed to have said that if he were given ten sentences written by the most honest man in France, he could still find something therein to convict him with. Do not give some zealous DA those sentences.

Also remember you will not be able to talk you way out of it at the scene. It will be up to the DA to press charges, not the cops.

I was advised by a friend who is an Attorney, to find out what ammo the local P.D is using and carry that. If it is good enough for them it is good enough for me. The only argument I can see for not using hand loads, is the fact that an attorney might try to claim that you had loaded some super deadly round. You have to be confident in what you carry, it is your choice. I for one would not want to give a lawyer in a civil case any advantage at all. I cary factory ammo.( Just my two cents)

A "super deadly round" is not relevant to the shooting. If you are claiming self defense then you are claiming deadly force was justified. It is not legally relevant whether that force was a baseball bat or a hypersonic projectile with a tungsten core. If you are justified you are justified. If your ammunition was illegal then the DA will probably stack that charge on top of whatever ever else he can in an attempt to get you to plead out. Another reason you want a lawyer who understands self defense cases and not a PD who is used to defending the bad guys.

It may be true that the kind of ammo you used could be an issue in a civil trial. However, I don't know of any civil case where it was. I'm open to references if somebody has any.

I know that no matter how good the shooting was, it ain't over until the T's are dotted, the I's crossed and the courts agree with you. I've studied a number of cases and I've seen several where a DA looking for headlines or "sending a message" (Why he wants to send a message to give the scumbags whatever they want is beyond me) went after people who did not deserve the krap.

In a sane world the police would show along with the local civil liberties union and the only concern would be, "Did the right person get shot?" I get that the system today does not favor the peacable citizen. All I'm trying to say here is that there a lot more things to worry about in the aftermath of a shooting than the kind of ammo you used.

 

[Jellybean]

I obviously have no where near the legal experiences that the other posters here do, but in every case of self defense investigation that I've had first hand knowledge of the defender was never charged with anything.

I know that once in awhile you will see something on TV or the news that makes people with little knowledge of the facts think that every prosecutor or DA is out to rake everyone over the coals or send them to prison just to make a name for themselves, but when you compare the number of times that this has really happened to the thousands upon thousands of cases where it hasn't, the odds are very much in the innocent persons favor. And when I say innocent, I mean the ones that are really innocent, because everyone knows there are no guilty people in prisons.

There was only one case that I personally know of where an innocent man was sent to prison. Neither the police nor the prosecutors were out to get him, it was a simple case of the "victim" lied through her teeth. The man was appointed a public defender, who wasn't doing much to help him, so his sister put a second mortage on her home to hire a much more expensive attorney to defend him. Notice I didn't say "better" attorney.

There was a person that had information that should have gotten the man released, and that was me. His attorney had me meet him while he was eating lunch, which wasn't a problem, but when I started to give him the information and had to give him a pen so he could write it down on a napkin, I had a feeling the poor guy was in deep trouble. And when he got up to leave and left the napkin on the table, I knew it for sure.

I have learned things from my experiences, just like my more knowledgeable fellow posters.

Defense attorneys get paid regardless of how the case turns out.

Defense attorneys don't care one bit if you go to jail or not.

Most defense attorneys don't know a thing about firearms, let alone reloading, and if a prosecutor or DA does call you bad names he won't even know what he's talking about to counter it.

 

[SMSgt]

Compared to some of the safe SD rounds produced by Bufflo Bore and the likes, the BG should be happy that I only shot him with my milder reloads. Otherwise, I'd have blown his head clean off!

 

[SMSgt]

There is a house I drive by regularly that has a sign in the yard that says "Protected by the Texas Castle Law." Every time I see it I think of some prosecutor using that as evidence of "premeditation" someday.

It also says: "Guns available here!"

 

[Bajadoc]

How would anyone know it was a reload? If facing legal issues don't talk a lot, consult an attorney.

 

[JC4013]

I promised myself to stay out of this. So I'm breaking another promise. For the record I practiced law for more than sixteen years, including five as a prosecutor, four of them as the elected official. I also spent enough years in law enforcement to have earned veteran status. I have been involved in several self-defense cases. In each and everyone we checked to see what kind of ammunition was used. Not only is that just good investigation practice, but it could also provide some insight into a person's mental state and intent.

I think we're really missing the point here. First, it is not, as a general statement a crime to use handloaded ammunition. But there are two glaring problems. First, with handloads you don't have the benefit of a factory backing you with experts to testify about ammunition behavior and that leaves the door open for a prosecutor or an attorney in a civil case to portray you as some sort of vigilante cowboy who is acting recklessly and needlessly endangering the public.

But second and more important, if a shooting was justified in the first place, the issue of what you loaded your gun with is irrelevant. Remember, every fatal shooting is assumed to be a homicide until it's proven otherwise. If there's a problem with the shooting, your choice of ammunition may play a role in how your are portrayed to the jury. Remember, juries are made up of twelve people who weren't smart enough to get out of jury duty.

If I was prosecuting a questionable self-defense case, would I use the type of ammunition against the defendant if I thought it would help get a conviction. In a New York minute because by that time I would be pretty certain you are a dangerous individual who should be removed from society. When a case reaches the courtrom, it's about winning and losing. Justice is a by-product of the system. Under our law, if we following proper rules and procedures, it is assumed justice is done. It's called due process.

So, if you want to use handloaded ammunition, talk to your lawyer so you know the law in your jurisdiction and make a knowing, knowledgable decision. For Heaven's sake, do not make that decision based on what you read on a website. Personally, I try to use ammunition that has a long track record with law enforcement.

Now, send me your address so I can send you a bill.....okay, just joking.

 

[Jellybean]

...First, with handloads you don't have the benefit of a factory backing you with experts to testify about ammunition behavior...

Thanks for the input. We had discussed this too during the earlier threads, one of which was a seperate thread. The fact is that you won't always have this with "factory" ammo either and none of them tell you on the box or websites if it is available or not.

Also a point you didn't mention, but has been brought up repeatedly in the past, is that every part of factory ammunition has been developed and tested in a lab while handloads don't have that benefit. But that is not really true either. All of my brass, primers, powders and most of my bullets were made by the exact same people that developed the factory ammo and the loads that I use are even lab tested and approved too. Reloading is pretty much like buying a pre-fab kit and assembling it yourself, and there is no certification needed by the assembler.

The same thing applies to firearms too. It is perfectly legal for me to go into my workshop and build a firearm, inculding the receiver, for my own use. Of course there are laws regarding both the ammo and firearms, but it's not as bad as some would think.

I think a lot of the problems that do arise, with people that are truely innocent anyway, are not so much because of malice or ill intent on the part of the attorneys or prosecutors as it is their pure ignorance of the facts and laws concerning firearms and the ammunition that they shoot.

 

[P&R Fan]

JC4013 makes some very good points, and I for one put a great deal of credence in his opinion because he has experience in this arena.
I think we are missing the important point here. A lot of posters have the attitude that it's not illegal so I double-dog-dare anybody to question my right to use handloads for self defense. Nobody is arguing it is illegal, or even unethical. The point is, in some cases prosecutors in a criminal case (not that likely) or more likely plaintiffs attorneys in a civil case will use this against you in court. Don't fool yourself, it HAS happened quite a few times. OK, now that I have that knowledge I have a decision to make. Since I carry a gun daily (actually two) I am prepared to use it to defend me or my loved ones. If I do that I will be in a very stressfull situation for quite some time afterwards, even if it is a totally "clean" shoot. I could save a few bucks by using handloads. But if this situation happens, and it is used against me by opposing counsel, how much will it cost me in time and attorneys fees to defend myself? I'll be honest with you, I have no doubt I and my legal counsel WOULD prevail, but my attorney charges $185 per hour. That adds up pretty quick. Is it worth it? For me, absolutely not. Is it a sure thing that information would be used in proceedings against me? No, it is not, but if I can take out that part of the equation, I'll happily do so. I can do that by using factory ammo. Legal counsel will throw anything they can at you to win. If I can take this very simple step to stay out of that quagmire I'm gonna take it. Feel free to have a different opinion, and we can still be friends.