reloads and the law

[Cpo1944]

A friend of mine who always sounds authoritative and knowledgable , but rarely is,
has told me that the use of home made ammo in a shooting incident is cause for the innocent shooter to be prosecuted by the law.
I wonder if any of you fine Truly knowledgable folks have heard of such BS?

 

[ronnie gore]

reload

absolute bs, i am retired law enforcement, the scummy lawyers can use it against you if the person you shoot sues in a civil case , but nothing crimminal about reloaded ammo.

 

[P&R Fan]

As far as I know there is no law against it. This has been discussed quite a bit here, and people believe strongly on both sides of the issue. The problem is, when a shooting happens, it will be examined very closely by the courts. In some cases there will be a prosecutor who doesn't like guns, and he may bring up the reload issue to make the shooter look like somebody who "tried to concoct the deadliest bullets he could". Is it BS? Absolutely, but it has happened.
Where this is more prevalent is the civil arena. An attorney out for a monetary settlement will bring it up ad nauseum. The fact there is no law against it doesn't matter, you will still have to defend yourself against these scurrilous accusations, and that may bankrupt you. For me, the risks arent worth what I would save over factory ammo costs. You may have a different opinion and that's fine.
If you want further information from someone who has seen this firsthand, check out the writings of Massad Ayoob. He has written on this extensively and testified about it in many civil and criminal cases.

 

[writerinmo]

Heard of it... dismissed it as the idiotic statement that it is. I know of no coroner who would even know it was a reload unless it was a bullet you cast yourself, and even then all they would note would be the caliber and type of bullet. I can't even imagine a police officer even asking "Did you shoot him with a bullet you bought or one you made?"

It would have to be a "VERY" questionable shooting for a DA to even begin to concern themselves with something along those lines... now if you shot them with a .22 and their freakin' head literally EXPLODED off his body, then they might wonder.

 

[Dave T]

I used to get lots of people in the CCW Certification classes I taught who thought this. My answer/explanation was always: if the shooting is justified it won't matter what ammunition you use...and if the shooting is un-justified it won't matter what ammunition you use.

It could become an issue in civil court but unless you are putting blasting caps or C4 in your hollow point handloads I think a competent attorney on your side can show your ammunition is irrelevant.

Dave

 

[Cpo1944]

As far as I know there is no law against it. This has been discussed quite a bit here, and people believe strongly on both sides of the issue. The problem is, when a shooting happens, it will be examined very closely by the courts. In some cases there will be a prosecutor who doesn't like guns, and he may bring up the reload issue to make the shooter look like somebody who "tried to concoct the deadliest bullets he could". Is it BS? Absolutely, but it has happened.
Where this is more prevalent is the civil arena. An attorney out for a monetary settlement will bring it up ad nauseum. The fact there is no law against it doesn't matter, you will still have to defend yourself against these scurrilous accusations, and that may bankrupt you. For me, the risks arent worth what I would save over factory ammo costs. You may have a different opinion and that's fine.
If you want further information from someone who has seen this firsthand, check out the writings of Massad Ayoob. He has written on this extensively and testified about it in many civil and criminal cases.

My thoughts exactly and I didn`t buy into it at all , but talking to that fella is like talking to the bricks.
I never use reloads for actual defense anyway ,but one could find it`s way into the cylinder-not that it matters.
I really like that SCURRILOUS word wish I knew how to work it into a conversation.

 

[computeruser]

Is your friend an attorney? Judge? If not, he should stick to things he knows about.

 

[Cpo1944]

Is your friend an attorney? Judge? If not, he should stick to things he knows about.

This guy knows everything about everything, Or so he thinks.

I`m beginning to not want him for a friend anymore.

 

[Old cop]

Jack: I agree w/others in that this is total BS. I worked as a LEO for 30 years and this never came up. As to your choice in friends, your last post may be a wise choice.

 

[Cpo1944]

Jack: I agree w/others in that this is total BS. I worked as a LEO for 30 years and this never came up. As to your choice in friends, your last post may be a wise choice.

Amen Shipmate

 

[acl864]

This guy knows everything about everything, Or so he thinks.

I think I know this guy. He posts under a lot of different names on most every forum that I go to.

BTW- this topic has been absolutely beat to death on several different forums including this one. The over/under for this thread is about 12 pages if it flairs up again...

 

[Jellybean]

Actually this is a tough question.

Instead of bringing all this up again, as it's been beaten to death several times, try a search and find the old threads.

There are supposed to be jurisdictions that ban the use of reloads for CCW carriers. And there is the possibility that an innocent shooter was found guilty because of his use of reloads. Not the fact that he used them, but because of the ignorance of the people that tried the case.

 

[kewpie]

In my case one of my carry guns is a Star PD .45. Most everyone knows this gun is not made for shooting factory loads due to its 'fragility.' Those who don't know could be shown much expert advice to support/substantiate this fact.

It would seem that using mild handloads in this instance would almost be a positive in behalf of someone who was forced to use such a weapon in self defense. Attorney could take the whole lot of unfired ammo and lab test it to his/her heart's content.

(Maybe it was deliberately loaded to 'disable' only )

 

[Cpo1944]

Actually this is a tough question.

Instead of bringing all this up again, as it's been beaten to death several times, try a search and find the old threads.

There are supposed to be jurisdictions that ban the use of reloads for CCW carriers. And there is the possibility that an innocent shooter was found guilty because of his use of reloads. Not the fact that he used them, but because of the ignorance of the people that tried the case.

Mr. Jellybean,
I`m sorry to bring back a subject that was "beaten to death"
The fact is I never even thought to do a search, but I will next time.
I`m still computer/forum illiterate.

 

[mkk41]

As with any of these 'experts' , tell him to find the federal , state or local law/statute/chapter/paragraph/verse. Gun laws are easy to find.

 

[Skip Sackett]

There is a famous law officer that uses a murder case to try to persuade you not to use home made ammo for SD. Whatever.

The truth is, Jelly hit it on the head. Check you local jurisdiction and if you are involved in a shooting, keep your mouth shut. You do have the right to remain silent, use it wisely!

 

[357larry]

Damn, sounds like jack oconnor has met my brother-in-law. He never saw a need to own an encyclopedia or dictionary, he already knows everything!

 

[brucev]

Talk to your local authorities. Find out if it might genuinely be an issue. Act accordingly. Remember that if you ever have to use a weapon in SD/HD, you will be facing major issues. Always best to think ahead and make sure you are not creating problems for yourself in the event of an incident. For my part, I reload practice ammo and full-power hunting ammo. For HD, I use plain Jane Remington 180gr. JHP .40 S&W ammo. At across the room HD distances, effectiveness in my G-22 will not be an issue. And if later the prosecutor wants to be difficult, using the same round and ammo as the local police department will give him one less thing he can look at for problems. JMHO. Sincerely. Bruce.

 

[Bullseye Smith]

My "BS" meter just went off scale and fell on the floor.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I understand caution, really, I get that. What I don't get is the fear behind it. Fear of being labeled, friend, if you carry a gun you already are labeled.

Make the cops do their job, convicting you of a crime. Don't help them by opening your, or mine for that matter, fool mouth. If you are super worried, use new components from the same manufacturer. All Federal cases, all XTP bullets, or whatever.

It's like what happened when the Republicans had control of Congress the last time. The Democrats didn't have to actually have a filibuster, all they had to do is threaten one.. Same here. No where in America, has handloaded ammunition been an issue in a court of law for a good self defense shooting, no where. All someone has to do is threaten for there to be an issue. We all cower in fear. NOT ME.

 

[Jellybean]

jack oconner, I wasn't trying to be offensive in any way towards you. If it appeared that way I apologize.

Imagine having a discussion with your friend for about 20 pages on a forum.

If there are no laws forbidding the use of reloads in the shooting situation, the shooter can not be charged with anything pertaining to them. You must have violated a law or ordinance to be accused or charged.

There are some that will tell you that the use of reloads will cause unscrupulous prosecutors to call you all sorts of bad names, but that would be a big mistake if your attorney is worth a... as it would hurt them more than help them. The same goes for a civil trial.

The "famous law officer" Skip, (smith crazy), mentioned is a member here and had participated in one or two of the previous discussions. He said the real reason to not use reloads is because there is no "exemplar" evidence to back you up. (Most ammo factories keep very detailed records of their ammunition based on the lot numbers marked on the box. If they know the lot number on the ammunition you used in a shooting they can provide test samples or information pertaining to ballistics tests without destroying the ammunition in evidence.) The problem with his article on the subject was that in the case he used for an example the suspects "innocence" was highly questionable and his use of reloaded ammunition really didn't have anything to do with his being found guilty. It appeared as though his attorney was trying to get testimony introduced that would create enough reasonable doubt that the jury couldn't find him guilty. But for a person that really is innocent, the lack of exemplar evidence might be a good thing.

 

[parabarbarian]

IANAL but the ammunition you use is unlikely to be relevant in a criminal case. I don't know of a single self defense case where it has been an issue. Any criminal case will hinge entirely on whether you were justified in using deadly force. If you have decided you will use deadly force to defend yourself, have ready the name and number of an attorney who know how to handle self defense cases.

From reading about self defense cases I've gleaned the following:

If you do shoot someone, call the cops, tell them you shot an attacker and give them your address. Put the gun in a safe place in a safe condition. Do not put it in your regular safe unless there is no other option (I have a small handgun safe in the living room and another in the den). When the cops arrive, do not say anything to them beyond:

1. I was attacked
2. I didn't do anything wrong
3. I want to talk to an attorney
4. I do not consent to any searches

Do not provide any information except on advice of counsel. A digital voice or video recorder is a good idea but check on the legalities in your area.

 

[armadillo]

It probably doesn't matter. But, if you have any doubts there is plenty of good factory stuff you can buy.

As for me, I asked an ammo dealer what he recommeded for self-defense - I bought 2 boxes and that is what I carry. When it comes to the criminal justice system any set of facts can be made to mean the exact opposit of what really happened.

There is a house I drive by regularly that has a sign in the yard that says "Protected by the Texas Castle Law." Every time I see it I think of some prosecutor using that as evidence of "premeditation" someday.

 

[Jellybean]

My "BS" meter just went off scale and fell on the floor.

Police and prosecutors use BS meters too, although they don't always keep them calibrated very well. They don't usually dig too deep unless their BS meters go off when the story you tell them doesn't match with the evidence they collect.

There is nothing wrong with asking to speak to your attorney first, but be careful with how you act. If they feel you are being hostile or evasive toward them, that might set their BS meters off too. If you are really innocent or justified, tell the truth, and nothing but the truth, the evidence will back you up. But if you try to overjustify your actions or try to fudge in your favor and the evidence doesn't bear everything out, it might work against you, even if you are innocent.

 

[M29since14]

You will never find a higher concentration of liars anywhere than in a courthouse, IMO. From what little I have seen, an honest man hasn't a chance. In the "legal system," being honest in no way guarantees the system will leave you alone. The truth is no substitute for competent legal representation.

 

[nitesite]

So...

What if I shoot a home invader with reloaded shotgun ammunition, say a high brass 2-3/4" 12-ga load of 1-1/8 ounce #4

Can anybody even tell?

 

[pat g]

Let see you shot somebody the least or your worries is the ammunition you used. Your and your family alive bad guy dead, good ending.

 

[CrossRifles2008]

Look use what ammo you feel comfortable protecting yourself with. Like my farther always said "Better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6."

 

[5906fan]

if any question arose concerning the ammo used in a s-d shooting I'd tell 'em I bought it at the fun show 'because it was cheap' years ago.
my sympathys jive with M29since 14

 

[Cpo1944]

IANAL but the ammunition you use is unlikely to be relevant in a criminal case. I don't know of a single self defense case where it has been an issue. Any criminal case will hinge entirely on whether you were justified in using deadly force. If you have decided you will use deadly force to defend yourself, have ready the name and number of an attorney who know how to handle self defense cases.

From reading about self defense cases I've gleaned the following:

If you do shoot someone, call the cops, tell them you shot an attacker and give them your address. Put the gun in a safe place in a safe condition. Do not put it in your regular safe unless there is no other option (I have a small handgun safe in the living room and another in the den). When the cops arrive, do not say anything to them beyond:

1. I was attacked
2. I didn't do anything wrong
3. I want to talk to an attorney
4. I do not consent to any searches

Do not provide any information except on advice of counsel. A digital voice or video recorder is a good idea but check on the legalities in your area.

Good advise I hope in time of crisis I would remain clear headed enough to remember it. Actually it would be a good idea to train all of the household members and keep a check list by the phone.

Put it big print: say this , do not say this!

My office has to maintain our certification credentials, and even though we complain about it - we practice fire drills and med emergencies twice a year. That way everyone knows where to go and what his or her responsibilities are. It avoids lots of confusion

Might be wise to practice a home invasion also, especially if there are very many folks living there, knowing what to do might prevent a mishap or save a life.