Reply from S&W re: +P+ ammo

[Don 73]

My letter to S&W:

Like the title says, I have a question about Winchester 115 gr +P+ 9mm ammunition. I am a police officer and I am required to carry this ammunition in my S&W M/P9c. Having heard some 'horror stories' about using "higher than standard pressure" ammunition, I wanted to ask you about using such ammunition in my firearm. I anticipate the weapon will fire 25 rounds of this per year for annual qualification and if used in the line of duty, several more rounds, obviously.

Am I exposing myself and the weapon to unnecessary risk by using this high pressure ammunition? Any information you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Their response:

Dear Customer,

We specifically recommend against using +P+ ammunition in any of our firearms. None of our guns have been tested to handle that type of pressure.

If further assistance is required please reply accordingly.

Sincerely,

David

There you have it from the horse's mouth. For now I'm still stuck using the +P+, unless I can convince the Chief into switching to the same ammo we use in the .45s (Winchester Ranger SXTs AKA Talons or at least the Golden Saber). But then again pigs may fly.

 

[shawn mccarver]

My letter to S&W:



Their response:




There you have it from the horse's mouth. For now I'm still stuck using the +P+, unless I can convince the Chief into switching to the same ammo we use in the .45s (Winchester Ranger SXTs AKA Talons or at least the Golden Saber). But then again pigs may fly.

It is nice that you took the time to write S&W, and I am not surprised at their response.

On the other hand, if they haven't tested +P+ in their firearms (I am not sure I believe this), many agencies certainly have done so without any ill effects.

In addition, I have fired many thousands of Federal 9BPLE and Winchester Ranger 127 grain JHP +P+ rounds over the years in both S&W, Glock, and others, with absolutely no ill effects. S&W is well aware that agencies with whom it contracts use +P+.

Just to push the envelope, a friend of mine and I, skeptical of the concern over firing +P+ in the now discontinued S&W SW9M, fired a case of Federal 9mm +P+ 9BPLE without any malfunctions or ill effects.

To be honest, I am sometimes critical of S&W when I feel they deserve it, but strength and durability of their guns is not, and never has been an issue. I would not hesitate at all to use +P+ in any S&W, whether it is an M&P pistol (full, compact or Shield size), a 3rd Generation or any other.

One regular contributor was with Illinois State Police and I believe they used +P+ for years in their S&Ws without ill effects. I would bet he would confirm that S&W was well aware of that agency's ammo choice.

Sorry for the long post, but I am trying to put your mind at ease. Especially in light of the tiny number of rounds of +P+ you will put through your M&P, I think you have nothing to worry about.

 

[Bkreutz]

I think it's more of a CYA or liability issue. When a design is proof tested, it's much greater than the design pressure. Then there is the question of what exactly is a +P+ load, everyone has a different idea, it's like the wild west of cartridges.

 

[bfayer]

Of course they have not tested +P+, because +P+ is not a SAAMI standard they can test against, it is what ever the ammo manufacture want's it to be.

 

[Wolfman-Iraq]

As a home defense round (+P+), I've been reading and there are concerns of over penetration. Any input on this?

 

[Warren Sear]

As a home defense round (+P+), I've been reading and there are concerns of over penetration. Any input on this?

I read somewhere that average self-defense shooting situations have 50% of shots fired missing the intended target completely.

Over-penetration is not the issue that some make it out to be. Make sure of what's behind your target before shooting. Do not depend on the criminal's body to stop your bullets.

 

[shawn mccarver]

As a home defense round (+P+), I've been reading and there are concerns of over penetration. Any input on this?

I do not have any concern. As the +P+ has all been developed for LE use and all of it has controlled expansion hollow points to minimize over penetration by maximizing expansion so as to cause the bullet to expend all of its energy in the target, thereby increasing stopping power, I believe +P+ is far less likely to over penetrate than other loads, especially full metal jacket loads.

 

[Cal44]

I wonder how Ruger would answer the same question.

I just bought some 44 mag +p+ Buffalo Bore ammo for my Super Blackhawk.

The ammo is marketed as only for Ruger and Freedom Arms revolvers.

 

[rebel0994]

I guarantee Ruger would mirror S&W's letter exactly, like was said before it's a CYA issue.

 

[Don 73]

As a home defense round (+P+), I've been reading and there are concerns of over penetration. Any input on this?

I can answer this one. We have had a few shootings involving 115gr +P+ ammo:
1) a medium sized pit bull, 3 rounds no over penetration
2) male trying to choke out a police officer, 1 round-arm = over penetration, one round torso = no over penetration
3) two misc leg shots, 50/50, one of each.

Nothing you can draw any definite conclusions from, but it gives you kind of an idea.

 

[bmyers]

Can I ask why you had to contact S&W for that information? S&W was nice enough to include a handy little book when your purchased your gun and even placed an electronic copy online for those that buy the gun used which it CLEARLY states S&W policy regarding +P+ ammo and that it should NOT be used in their guns.

 

[Don 73]

Can I ask why you had to contact S&W for that information? S&W was nice enough to include a handy little book when your purchased your gun and even placed an electronic copy online for those that buy the gun used which it CLEARLY states S&W policy regarding +P+ ammo and that it should NOT be used in their guns.

Sure, because it didn't list +P+ in my book, or if it did, I didn't see it and secondly I know that "No" is a CYA answer and maybe that by seeing how few +P+ rounds I intend to actually put through the gun, I might get even a hesitant 'ok' to such a limited amount.

Back when my department adopted the +P+, rounds like the Talon and Golden Saber did not exist, so they picked the round that had the highest documented cases of successful performance, now personally, while I have no qualms about the +P+, I would like to see one of the newer rounds selected for duty use. Like the Talon, which has an awesome record with our department in our 45s, or even the Golden Saber which is just a re-designed talon.

 

[bmyers]

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/M&P_Pistol_Manual_10-30-2012.pdf

Above is the link to the manual on S&W website. If you look at page 11, that is where it states +P+ ammo must not be used.

I understand on what you where hoping for from the S&W was just a little "nod" saying that it was alright and wouldn't blow up the gun, but since you sent an email and the response would be back in writing, they would have to follow the company stated policy otherwise they could open themselves up to litigation.

Now, a phone call, you might get an "off the record" answer that could alleviate some of your concerns. Yet, when you try to pin a company down, they will always fall back to their lawyers recommendation(s).

 

[Kaliman]

Or maybe he's just getting more evidence to convince his department to move away from +P+.

 

[scooter123]

I have to assume that your in a small town, because I would find it rather surprising that a large city would ever permit the use of +P+ ammunition in this age of litigation. Even if it's a small town I expect that the town will have a Lawyer on retainer and that is your solution. Contact the Town Lawyer and provide him with documentation that shows this ammunition is specifically banned from usage in the issued firearms and point out that the Town will be liable for ANY injuries resulting from the use of these ammunitions.

BTW, I'm not really a fan of excess power ammunition. It not only beats up the gun it frequently doesn't shoot to the same point of aim as normal service loads and it does create a situation where the city and officer can face the consequences of an injury caused by these loads. I find it rather stunning that any Police Chief would ever consider issuing a +P+ ammunition. However, because it is Winchester I rather suspect that what you actually have would test toward the "mild" side of a +P ammunition and that extra + is simply a marketing gimmick. If you really want to know what you have find someone with a chronograph and clock the ammo using a Sig P226 or similar semi with traditional rifling in the barrel.

 

[shouldazagged]

They lawyered up.

My 640 no-dash, built in 1990 according to S&W, is laser-etched inside the bottom of the frame, by the factory, "Tested For +P+". It doesn't say they approve its use, but they sure tested it in the gun. Apparently from what I've been able to learn they released a few thousand just like it. Special LE order? I don't know and they won't say.

I don't shoot +P+, though some civilians apparently do. But litigation seems to be our number one indoor sport, so Smith will naturally advise against it.

 

[Smitty357]

S&W also advises against the .40 to 9mm conversion using the factory 9mm barrel.

But we all already know how this works.

 

[Don 73]

I have to assume that your in a small town, because I would find it rather surprising that a large city would ever permit the use of +P+ ammunition in this age of litigation. Even if it's a small town I expect that the town will have a Lawyer on retainer and that is your solution. Contact the Town Lawyer and provide him with documentation that shows this ammunition is specifically banned from usage in the issued firearms and point out that the Town will be liable for ANY injuries resulting from the use of these ammunitions.

LOL, no I'm not small town. I wish I was because the Chief would be more approachable and would likely NOT have nixed my 3913 (although I have to say, I am getting really fond of my 9c).

We changed to the +P+ because at the time we were carrying the 147 gr subsonic round, the same as a large city nearby. They were having terrible failures (over penetration, failure to stops etc) with the subsonic rounds and we wanted something more reliable. The Chief at the time was more receptive and after showing him all the information we could dig up about the +P+ VS the subsonic, he authorized the change. As I stated somewhere else, this was before the advent of the talon or golden saber. Now with the negative press from the gun manufacturers regarding the +P+, I and a few others in the know are pressing for a change to the talon, as carried in our 45s, or the saber which is a re-designed talon, although these too are a heavy-weight, slower round, their design with a deeply notched reverse taper brass jacket have proven to work extremely well. I even took out a deer with the talons (wounded and running around) with two center mass hits. Granted this was with a 45, but after recovering the two slugs from the deer, we discovered they performed flawlessly with no over penetration.

 

[Lost Lake]

You guys are missing the point, which will also explain S&W's position.

The 9mm luger barrels are designed to hold Saami pressure limits of 38,000psi, with a 35,000psi average expected load.

+P loads are tested to 41,500psi with an average at 38,500psi.

SAAMI


+P+ loads are ANY load beyond the +P limit. They could be 10,000,000,000psi. The sky is the limit because there is no standard. When you ask S&W if your gun can handle loads that could be really hot, what do you expect them to say?

So the place to ask your question is the ammo manufacturer. They will know the pressures their loads are producing.

Then maybe ask S&W how they feel about 30 rounds of 42,000psi loads (or whatever ) running through the gun every year.

Chances are they will still CTA, but at least you will know what pressures your rounds are putting out.

 

[RussC]

My letter to S&W:



Their response:




There you have it from the horse's mouth. For now I'm still stuck using the +P+, unless I can convince the Chief into switching to the same ammo we use in the .45s (Winchester Ranger SXTs AKA Talons or at least the Golden Saber). But then again pigs may fly.

Don

Ask Chief if he is willing to trade out M&P 9c for the M&P 40c.



Russ