Reply from S&W re: +P+ ammo

[bfayer]

You guys are missing the point, which will also explain S&W's position.

The 9mm luger barrels are designed to hold Saami pressure limits of 38,000psi, with a 35,000psi average expected load.

+P loads are tested to 41,500psi with an average at 38,500psi.

SAAMI


+P+ loads are ANY load beyond the +P limit. They could be 10,000,000,000psi. The sky is the limit because there is no standard. When you ask S&W if your gun can handle loads that could be really hot, what do you expect them to say?

So the place to ask your question is the ammo manufacturer. They will know the pressures their loads are producing.

Then maybe ask S&W how they feel about 30 rounds of 42,000psi loads (or whatever ) running through the gun every year.

Chances are they will still CTA, but at least you will know what pressures your rounds are putting out.

Thanks, I tried to point that out in an earlier post, but people blew right past what I was trying to say. You did a much better job.

Asking a manufacture to approve +p+ is asking them to approve shooting anything you can cram in the chamber.

 

[Don 73]

Don

Ask Chief if he is willing to trade out M&P 9c for the M&P 40c.



Russ

No go, he's already carved in stone what is and what isn't allowed.

 

[RussC]

Don

Ask Chief if everyone can qualify using his M&P 9 c

Russ

 

[Don 73]

Don

Ask Chief if everyone can qualify using his M&P 9 c

Russ

You're forgetting that he's exempt and can carry what gun/load he wants

 

[HCH]

Who do the ammo manufacturers make +P+ for? What guns do they shoot? I'm under the impression that NATO spec ammo is comparable to +P+. So what really gives?

 

[rwsmith]

It's plainly stated

My letter to S&W:



Their response:




There you have it from the horse's mouth. For now I'm still stuck using the +P+, unless I can convince the Chief into switching to the same ammo we use in the .45s (Winchester Ranger SXTs AKA Talons or at least the Golden Saber). But then again pigs may fly.

Don't they care anything about safety rules? +P+ is an indefinite designation that is not specified in Saami regs. I guess the chief figures that by the time you beat your gun to death, they will have new ones to abuse. If somebody gets hurt by this, the chief's rear end will be hanging in tatters.

 

[Don 73]

There you have it from the horse's mouth. For now I'm still stuck using the +P+, unless I can convince the Chief into switching to the same ammo we use in the .45s (Winchester Ranger SXTs AKA Talons or at least the Golden Saber). But then again pigs may fly.

With my foot in my mouth I say to you "Beware of low-flying pigs." A little bird told me that the push for other than +P+ ammunition has already occurred, and the battle won. We are switching to the Winchester Ranger "T" Series 127, the same ammo design that we carry in our 45s. The bad news? Expected delivery date - up to a year Now all I have to do is see if the powers that be will let me carry the Golden Saber in the meantime.

 

[DigiRebel]

You're forgetting that he's exempt and can carry what gun/load he wants

Then my vote is for an MG-42

 

[DigiRebel]

Don't they care anything about safety rules? +P+ is an indefinite designation that is not specified in Saami regs. I guess the chief figures that by the time you beat your gun to death, they will have new ones to abuse. If somebody gets hurt by this, the chief's rear end will be hanging in tatters.

From what he's said they've been using it for a while now. If there has been no catastrophic failures, its my guess that the "safety rules" aren't the issue.

Not to side with the higher ups on this one, but if something ain't broke, its kinda hard to make an argument to fix it. I think that is probably the hill he's going to have to fight up.

 

[scooter123]

Don, you are missing the point. Go to your city's legal department and provide them with the lack of actual specifications for +P+ ammunition. Once they see that it presents a real litigation risk they will ban it's use. Your Chief won't have any say in the matter, when a city's Lawyer draw a line there isn't any way to go around it.

I will also note that your continuing statements are somewhat concerning.

First, it's Winchester who originally produced the Talon line of ammunition and the descendent ammunition is the Ranger-T. Remington's Golden Saber has nothing to do with Talon and claiming the Golden Sabers use Talon bullets is misinformation.

Yeah, I am a bit over sensitive about Police personnel spreading lies and misinformation, because right now any anti gun law enforcement officer is granted the bully pulpit in the news anytime he wants to open his clap trap. Fox news currently has an Austin. TX police officer worrying that the Daniel Defense printable gun could be smuggled past a metal detector. Try getting through a metal detector anywhere with a 45 ACP round and see how well that goes. In addition what I've seen indicates that particular printable gun uses a steel barrel insert and steel firing pin and spring, so it's not going to get smuggled past any metal detector that is functioning properly. Basically more lies from certain Law Enforcement have me a bit peeved this morning.

Second, I really have to question anyone taking a Deer with the 45 ACP. If you were dealing with an injured animal and that's all you had I guess that's OK. However I think that it would have been wiser and more humane to call for a patrol or sheriffs unit with a slug equipped shotgun or rifle onboard. If you were hunting with the 45 ACP, I don't even think that is legal in Ohio and it's certainly NOT a good choice for handgun hunting a deer. IIRC Ohio Hunting Regs mandate a 5 inch minimum barrel length and a straight walled casing. For most Handgun Hunters suitable calibers start with the 357 Magnum and proceed rather quickly to recommendations for either the 41 or 44 Magnum due to concerns about the 357 Magnum being slightly lacking. The 45 ACP is technically a Tapered casing and only caries about 60% of the energy of a hunting load of 357 Magnum, so it would be an exceptionally poor choice for handgun hunting and technically a violation of Ohio hunting regs.

 

[highaltitude]

I never understood the attraction or reason to use +P+ ammo. I mean, wouldn't a firearm with 15 to 17 round capacity of 124g +P Gold Dots be more than capable ? My gosh.

 

[Don 73]

I will also note that your continuing statements are somewhat concerning.

First, it's Winchester who originally produced the Talon line of ammunition and the descendent ammunition is the Ranger-T. Remington's Golden Saber has nothing to do with Talon and claiming the Golden Sabers use Talon bullets is misinformation.

Yeah, I am a bit over sensitive about Police personnel spreading lies and misinformation, because right now any anti gun law enforcement officer is granted the bully pulpit in the news anytime he wants to open his clap trap. Fox news currently has an Austin. TX police officer worrying that the Daniel Defense printable gun could be smuggled past a metal detector. Try getting through a metal detector anywhere with a 45 ACP round and see how well that goes. In addition what I've seen indicates that particular printable gun uses a steel barrel insert and steel firing pin and spring, so it's not going to get smuggled past any metal detector that is functioning properly. Basically more lies from certain Law Enforcement have me a bit peeved this morning.

Second, I really have to question anyone taking a Deer with the 45 ACP. If you were dealing with an injured animal and that's all you had I guess that's OK. However I think that it would have been wiser and more humane to call for a patrol or sheriffs unit with a slug equipped shotgun or rifle onboard. If you were hunting with the 45 ACP, I don't even think that is legal in Ohio and it's certainly NOT a good choice for handgun hunting a deer. IIRC Ohio Hunting Regs mandate a 5 inch minimum barrel length and a straight walled casing. For most Handgun Hunters suitable calibers start with the 357 Magnum and proceed rather quickly to recommendations for either the 41 or 44 Magnum due to concerns about the 357 Magnum being slightly lacking. The 45 ACP is technically a Tapered casing and only caries about 60% of the energy of a hunting load of 357 Magnum, so it would be an exceptionally poor choice for handgun hunting and technically a violation of Ohio hunting regs.

I know that Winchester had the original talon design, but the designer of the talon went to Remington and developed the golden saber (at least that's what the print media stated).

The officer who is all paranoid about the printable gun is just that, paranoid. I know I might be making some enemies among my profession, but I don't think the ones who are anti gun are thinking things through properly and in this case they are wrong.


I was on duty, the deer WAS wounded, it was near the highway and had already been hit. It was trying to make its way BACK into traffic, when I fired (PS It was UNDER an bridge overpass and my backstop was the concrete of the underside of the road). I couldn't risk the animal getting back into traffic, so I took the shot.

I know that a .45 acp is not a preferred handgun to hunt with and that there are better, legal choices, but you work with what you have.

 

[vipermd]

highaltitude: One FMJ 38 from a snub to the brain stem will stop a fight immediately! The problem is that other than paper most targets are moving, poor light, high,drunk,psychotic, etc. Using the +P+ "may" produce a 1-2 rd stop and therefore be more "acceptable" than 12 +p! It sounds good but I do not have current stats in front of me to suggest a significant advantage to +p /+P+. Il State police went to a +p+ many back in the 1980's ( failure to stop 19 rds of 9mm + 2 12 ga slugs ), it seemed to work in their 39+ 59's. I saw a 6'5", 375 lb, intoxicated, male, muscular, who had taken 5 38's 158 lead round nose from j-frame snub, ( 1-through right lung, 2 -into abdomen {small + large bowel}, both stayed in, 1-rt forearm {Fx radius} exited, 1- lt thigh, exited no Fx. He then beat the shooter into a coma with a chair leg before first responders arrived. He survived and was getting high with in 1 week!! Had it been a 38 FBI/Chicago lead 158 gr LSWC HP +P would that have stopped the fight with one shot?? So I carry 46 rds of 40 SW 165 gr Ranger, so you might think I am "paranoid", not really since where I live I can be 10 miles from the next house, out of cell range and be confronted with an attack. The OP may never fire a rd on duty or he may run into the perp that I described above, who is armed , shooting, moving, and under the influence, I hope the OP has 2 spare mags and a back-up!! What ever gets you home safe. Be Safe,

 

[Wolfman-Iraq]

Who do the ammo manufacturers make +P+ for? What guns do they shoot? I'm under the impression that NATO spec ammo is comparable to +P+. So what really gives?

I believe NATO rounds are rated at "+P".

 

[slfree]

I'm reminded of a gun magazine article from the '80s or '90s where Massad Ayoob (The gun guru) spent a day shooting live Cows in the head with his 4506. He was at a slaughter house. Seems the Federal Hydra-Shok did an OK job on the animals thick skull. I remember only because this was the combo I carried at the time.
As to over penetration, a kid of mine staying at home alone for the first time decided he needed some "protection." The accidental discharge of a .38+p Hydra-Shok round (maybe a 20 year old bullet) in a 6" barrel crossed a 24' living room, thru an interior wall and a photo frame. went on whole into another interior wall where it broke up after glancing off an iron water line. In pieces it took out a mirror and frame. Some of the fragments were found on the floor and lodged in a third wall. Were it not for the water pipe there was little to keep that round within the house. Maybe some more drywall and a 1"X6" piece of clapboard. I really thought it should have broken up sooner.

 

[Nevada Ed]

In WWII the +P+ ammo was designed for the machine guns.

The German Lugar used the lower velocity ammo........
but a modern Beretta will digest +P+ ammo like we do M&M's.

The NATO ammo is below +P+ speeds and is at or near +P
and all ammo is "BALL" type. One reason a standard or +P JHP will do the job if placed right or enough hits are made on a subject.

 

[Badkarma 1]

Also one other thing to consider, at the time of the +P+ rounds height of popularity it wasn't told very often but those departments that issued said round had to sign a waiver with the firearms manufacture in the event of accelerated weapons wear or breakage. The manufactures knew the stuff was way over pressure!
The newer loads like the 124gr. Gold Dot+P, 147gr. HST, and Ranger Talon in both weights is working very well on the streets.
If you have to have hi-velocity, by pass the 9mm and go straight to the .357SIG! Plenty of depts are satisfied with this hot rod, and I'm becoming a fan of it myself. Dale

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I read somewhere that average self-defense shooting situations have 50% of shots fired missing the intended target completely.

Over-penetration is not the issue that some make it out to be. Make sure of what's behind your target before shooting. Do not depend on the criminal's body to stop your bullets.

I have to disagree with this. I have no intention of using my gun unless my life is in danger. When that happens, I'm going to be mostly getting my gun out and aiming it. I am NOT going to be running from side to side trying to ascertain what is behind my assailant. I am going to be putting bullets into his chest. The time to figure out whether your bullets are going to pass through the perp's body with significant power remaining is BEFORE you load them into the clip or cylinder or magazine. I most certainly WILL be depending on the perp's body to stop my bullets, and I will make reasonable efforts to insure that he can live up to that responsibility, by insuring that I use appropriate cartridges

 

[FF112173]

Amen Brother!

 

[Cal44]

Back to the manufacturer's liability for a moment.

The ammo manufacturer has a lot at stake if they supply a cartridge that results injury to the shooter.

Winchester / Olin is a reputable company, and it seems unlikely to me that they would sell a 9mm round that would cause a commonly used law enforcement gun like an M&P 9c to fail catastrophically -- at least without all kinds of written warnings.

Perhaps they would, however, sell a round that results in increased wear and tear and higher maintenance if used constantly.