Rethinking some carry decisions

[pmhayden]

Just curious if you would extend the same courtesy to a HUMAN attacker? You know, start at the low end of the spectrum with mace or something, and work your way up to a firearm?

With all respect, it depends on the facts, like any other important decision. But I don't want my only choice to be having to shoot a dog or do nothing. It is pretty easy to justify using pepper spray on a dog that is chasing me.

And I have no desire to harm anyone unless there is absolutely no choice. I consider myself blessed that I have never had to take a human life. (I am surprised by the number of people whom I know who have done so, in the service and as LEO.)

Most of the **** I get on a bike is just juvenile harassment. Diesel smoke and middle fingers. Its the unintended consequences that are dangerous. Stupid kids. They do not understand what a full can of Monster will do if it hits you from a speeding car at 65 mph. But if I shot them for it, I doubt that I would get out of it with my gun rights intact.

 

[CoMF]

FWIW, when I know I'm in an area where I'm likely to encounter off-leash dogs, I carry a walking stick and a J-frame. Both are tools for specific situations. A person who limits themselves to a single tool had better be able to properly employ it when necessary, because they are already limiting their options from the start.

I am no Jerry Miculek or Bob Munden. I cannot draw, aim, and put shots into the kill zone of a charging dog in the time it would take for one to close distance and chomp down on my extremities, let alone doing this when I have a leash in my off hand with a Shiba Inu in full freak-out mode on the other end of it. In this situation, my walking stick is FAR more useful because it's already in my hand and can be used to keep distance between myself and another dog's jaws.

Then there are other variables that make things not so black-and-white. What if you actually know the dog? What if the dog is annoying but harmless? Do you just shoot any dog that so much as looks at you funny? How many times can we get away with that before we're brought up on charges of animal cruelty?

Sorry to say, but a firearm is not a talisman that will magically protect you from mean dogs. Unless you're quick enough to deploy it when circumstances truly warrant the use of lethal force, you need to realistically look at having other options at your disposal.

 

[cmort666]

Sorry to say, but a firearm is not a talisman that will magically protect you from mean dogs. Unless you're quick enough to deploy it when circumstances truly warrant the use of lethal force, you need to realistically look at having other options at your disposal.

• Are the other items "talismans"?
• Are they any faster than a gun?

I'm not Batman and don't have a utility belt to carry all of the things that people think I ought to carry.

If you let your dog run loose and it attacks somebody (or gives the reasonable impression that it's going to), that's on YOU. It may or may not be the dog's fault. It may or may not be yours. I KNOW it's not MINE. I'm NOT going to get bitten while we assemble a dozen Talmudic scholars to debate whose fault it IS.

 

[Buford57]

Strictly anecdotal. Leaving aside puppy nips and snaps when removing porcupine quills I have been bitten 5 times over the course of 45 years. Three were German Shepherds, one was a Plott hound and one a mixed breed whose head was strangely round for his English Setter coloration. All but the hound were in the line of duty. All were single bites, not maulings. None were shot. All were either in their own yards or in the presence of a responsible human. Two of the shepherds had been proclaimed "OK" by said human within two minutes before the bite.

My worst dog experience, though, was with a pack of at least 6 (didn't get a good head count) dogs I encountered on a landfill in Puerto Rico. My entire armament was a folding knife and a shovel handle I was using as a walking staff. The knife never came out. For some reason, the sound of the first 2 or 3 dogs "ki-yiking" made the rest remember urgent business elsewhere. Sorry , I didn't get their breed, license number or home address. I suspect the landfill (open dump, really) was their home address.

That's my point. They were feral dogs, not merely pets running at large. That appears to be the situation in Detroit as well. Do I trust the owners of German Shepherds to know whether their dogs will bite? No. Does the thought of facing a half dozen pit bulls cause me more concern than an equal number of Chihuahuas? Yup. If that makes me a breed bigot, so be it.

If we could find a way to outlaw irresponsible humans I might get behind that. I'm not sure it's possible to completely breed or train out the predation instinct in a dog, but it is certainly possible to encourage it, and only the dog knows for sure what he considers suitable prey.

 

[CoMF]

• Are the other items "talismans"?
• Are they any faster than a gun?

• Not if you know how to employ them properly and in an effective manner when circumstances warrant.
• Yes, they can be. It all depends on what you have at your immediate disposal.

(Hint: A firearm that you have to reach into a pocket for or draw from under clothing isn't "at your immediate disposal.")

If you let your dog run loose and it attacks somebody (or gives the reasonable impression that it's going to), that's on YOU. It may or may not be the dog's fault. It may or may not be yours. I KNOW it's not MINE. I'm NOT going to get bitten while we assemble a dozen Talmudic scholars to debate whose fault it IS.

PA law says if I'm in fear of getting bitten, I can shoot the offending dog. Just because I can doesn't mean I'm automatically going to. If you want to shoot every dog that looks at you funny, go right ahead. As for me, I pick and choose my battles and try not to deal with idiots (i.e. irresponsible dog owners) if I can help it.

I'm not really worried anyway, because I have something that puts distance between me and an attacking dog while giving me enough time to access my firearm if necessary. It also serves as a less lethal option. I've never been savaged, to date. I must be doing something right.

No academics. No "Walter Mitty" delusions. Just simple solutions that have an actual basis in reality.

 

[andyo5]

Getting my popcorn ready.

On a serious note - I've started carrying mixed ammo in my autos and revolvers - DPX (for thugs) and Liberty Civil Defense (for thugs with body armor) every other round. I've been thinking about throwing in a few hard cast Buffalo Bore (for thugs with fur):

5-shot 357 mag revolvers:

DPX
Liberty
DPX
Liberty
Buffalo Bore

And in my autos something similar:

DPX
Liberty
DPX
Liberty
Buffalo Bore
Buffalo Bore
<REPEAT>

^This way if faced with an attacking Pit/Rot/T-Rex I'll just empty the mag into them.

Is that popcorn ready yet?
I have also been thinking of mixing ammo, for the same reasons.

 

[cmort666]

If you want to shoot every dog that looks at you funny, go right ahead.

We're not talking about "funny LOOKS".

We're talking about a reasonable belief that you're going to be bitten.

Again, if you let your dog run loose, such that others reasonably perceive it as a threat, that's on YOU.

 

[CoMF]

We're not talking about "funny LOOKS".

We're talking about a reasonable belief that you're going to be bitten.

Therein lies the rub. Generally speaking, people can't seem to reach a consensus on what the definition of "reasonable" is.

Again, if you let your dog run loose, such that others reasonably perceive it as a threat, that's on YOU.

Yeah, no kidding.

Thing is, though, I want to avoid having to potentially deploy my sidearm TWICE if I can do so without risking life or limb.

Pick and choose my battles, remember? My reason for carrying is not to teach life lessons to the terminally stupid.

 

[cmort666]

Therein lies the rub. Generally speaking, people can't seem to reach a consensus on what the definition of "reasonable" is.

We seem to be doing a pretty good job of it in Ohio.

Cops these days have a reputation for shooting dogs for little or no reason. Even cops here seem not to be running around looking for dogs to shoot, nevermind private citizens.

What DOES happen is somebody allows their dog to run loose, such that it can create a reasonable fear of somebody being bitten and it gets shot. The VICTIM doesn't shoot the owner and he doesn't get prosecuted.

Yeah, no kidding.

Thing is, though, I want to avoid having to potentially deploy my sidearm TWICE if I can do so without risking life or limb.

I'm not going to do that at risk to myself. IF you're willing to be bitten to avoid a conflict with a criminal dog owner, have at it. I'm NOT.

Pick and choose my battles, remember? My reason for carrying is not to teach life lessons to the terminally stupid.

Sometimes those things are inextricably linked.

Here, Arthur Buford learned the "life lesson" that you don't try to rob somebody in his own front yard, while you're on probation for... ARMED ROBBERY. That act was both stupid, and [for little Artie] TERMINAL. What's the alternative, let him rob (and maybe murder) you?

My "battle" plan doesn't include letting myself be robbed OR bitten.

 

[CoMF]

You mistake my prudence for acquiescence. How unfortunate.

*Yawn* Remind me why we're having this discussion again?

 

[Watchdog]

*Yawn* Remind me why we're having this discussion again?

So the same people can show up and say the same thing over and over again, just as they've done on every other thread relating to pit bulls or "aggressive dogs".

The only difference between this thread and threads about bear guns or open carry is the subject matter.

You may now consider yourself reminded.

 

[Protected One]

OP, if I was worried about large animal attacks I'd carry enough gun and enough ammo. That's really the only specific answer I can give. I'm not a big fan of 380 and 38spl to begin with but if something like a 100 lbs angry dog is a concern I would carry something in 357 for revolver or 40/45/357sig. ....maybe 10mm.

I did start carrying my glock 23 again, and wouldn't you know it?...almost had to use it on a 2-legged threat less than two weeks later!

 

[cmort666]

I did start carrying my glock 23 again, and wouldn't you know it?...almost had to use it on a 2-legged threat less than two weeks later!

With all of the things going on today, I've started carrying the 3.5" M1911 every day. No perceived immediate threats in years, but most of the ones I've had have come out of the blue.

 

[686-380]

That's how most incidents occur

With all of the things going on today, I've started carrying the 3.5" M1911 every day. No perceived immediate threats in years, but most of the ones I've had have come out of the blue.

We had a police officer lose his life a couple of days ago. He was responding to a traffic accident: Gunman in police shooting was facing new firearms charge when he killed cop | KSL.com

Personally, I don't know whether the size or type of firearm matters as much as having one. That, and being willing to use it.

 

[cmort666]

Personally, I don't know whether the size or type of firearm matters as much as having one. That, and being willing to use it.

I went from a Smith 36 "no-dash" to the Citadel 3.5 CS. That's a significant change, both in caliber and capacity.

 

[BaaBaa]

What if the dog is annoying but harmless? Do you just shoot any dog that so much as looks at you funny? How many times can we get away with that before we're brought up on charges of animal cruelty?

In my location if a dog is on harassing or threatening or even just plain scaring us or our livestock we are fully within our rights to shoot it. Call the sheriff for a potential dog problem and the answer, from 911, is if you have a gun please go shoot the dog now. I can't think if a single person in the county who had a problem shooting a dog, except the one guy who was within a city limits and he got off with a misdemeanor for "discharging a firearm in the town limits" but no problems for killing the dog.

 

[Protected One]

Some evidence about cases of dog attacks

This is why I say NO DOG gets to attack or bite me without first working his way past several rounds from my edc.

Bad Request

 

[moxie]

According to this article, the stray dog population of Detroit is only 1,000, not 250,000.
Detroit's stray dog population is likely 1,000, includes 10 packs; get an expert's analysis | MLive.com

I might add that the CDC, mentioned earlier in this thread, should stick to controlling diseases, and quit worrying about guns and dogs.

 

[Protected One]

According to this article, the stray dog population of Detroit is only 1,000, not 250,000.
Detroit's stray dog population is likely 1,000, includes 10 packs; get an expert's analysis | MLive.com

There's no conflict. "Strays" are dogs without owners. No one said that the 250,000 were all strays.

 

[Dvan34]

I recall many years ago when i was on duty working at the Border as a Customs officer. At the time I was a supervisory inspector. I was walking through the Vehicle Secondary Area when a Narcotic detector dog charged me, hitting the end of his lease. Then it 'snapped' the hasp and the dog leaped at my throat. Fortunately, my reaction was to hit the dog ( German Shepherd) as he came at me in the air with a right cross to the jaw, It whirled him around and then he landed and rebounded to attack again. Luckily, the doghandler arrived and commanded him to stop. I never considered shooting him, although I was armed since the Vehicle Secondary was busy with officers searching cars and people waiting. I would never of had time anyway. A bullet fired there could have missed or richoceted off cars, the pavement or the building hitting someone. The dog was a violent, dangerous animal that everyone had to be careful around, as were others in the program. You certainly avoided 'petting' them.