Revolver Action Job Question

[Pdxrealtor]

I have this 586 L comp I picked up not too long ago. It has almost a full lb of trigger pull between shots 1-7.

I have other revolvers and they are dead on every pull, so it's not my gauge or technique.

What would cause this variation. After seeing it on the gauge, I can easily feel it, but I can't really tell where it's coming from.

 

[tomcatt51]

Two common causes:

Extractor rod doesn't run true.

Inconsistent ratchets.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Thanks Tomcatt. Got one hour into the Jerry Miculeck video last night and figured it had to have something to do with those ratchets or the hand.

The ejector rod is straight..... put an air compressor hose angled at the chamber holes and made it spin. Straight as can be.

Looks like I get to learn about polishing up the ratchets.

 

[ontargetagain]

Does this situation exist only on DA or both DA and SA?
Is there any chance you have any fouling on front of cylinder that is dragging on the forcing cone?
DO you have the original grips on it?
Karl

 

[Pdxrealtor]

I didn't test the SA multiple times, but don't recall noticing a difference.

There were no grips on the gun

 

[steelslaver]

Check the gap at each chamber to forcing cone to see if the cylinder face is square. Might be dragging a bit on part of the cylinder. if not, look at the ratchet with good magnification. If the gun is locking up before the hand is done moving you will often see a little burr on that ratchet tooth. I use a super fine (600 grit), very small diamond file. DO NOT file file. Make one short stroke holding file flat to surface. Try it. Some of my files have one side ground off so it does not cut except on the surface I desire to cut.

Real precision work can and is done with files. Tool and die makers use them all the time. Lots of stuff is messed up by poor filing.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Check the gap at each chamber to forcing cone to see if the cylinder face is square. Might be dragging a bit on part of the cylinder. if not, look at the ratchet with good magnification. If the gun is locking up before the hand is done moving you will often see a little burr on that ratchet tooth. I use a super fine (600 grit), very small diamond file. DO NOT file file. Make one short stroke holding file flat to surface. Try it. Some of my files have one side ground off so it does not cut except on the surface I desire to cut.

Real precision work can and is done with files. Tool and die makers use them all the time. Lots of stuff is messed up by poor filing.

I did check the b/c gap and it will rotate completely with .008. It does get a tad tighter as it rotates, but not enough to lock the action up.

Any specific file you suggest? I have a some diamonds, but they are cheap harbor freight.

 

[armorer951]

Ratchets are finish cut with a 4" barrette file. Considerable training and experience is required. I wouldn't risk ruining the ratchets before determining if they are the cause of the problem. Have you tried checking the SA pull when the cylinder is open? This would tell you if the inconsistency in the pull is being caused by an oversized ratchet, or if the problem has another cause, unrelated to the relationship between the hand and ratchet/extractor assy.
Have you checked it with empty casings in the cylinder? Alignment of the extractor (and ratchets) is different with casings inserted than it is when the chambers are empty.

If the ratchets are oversized for the existing hand, depending on the size of the hand that is in the gun, you may be able to substitute a slightly thinner (.001-.002") hand and solve the problem, as long as proper carry up is maintained. Replacing the hand would eliminate the problem without having to remove material from any offending ratchet(s)......and would be far less expensive that having to have a new extractor fit to the gun if the extractor is overcut/damaged.

Also, if the gun is new, a suitable break in period and some some dry firing may mitigate the perceived problem, and eliminate the need for intervention or modification.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

This is a 586 l comp, pc gun so one would think proper hand fitment would have been covered.

I have not tried sa with barrel open, will try this.

I'm thinking the extractor may be marred, not sized wrong? I have others I can comlare to, and the jerry mickuleck video to reference.

Perhaps a step by step would be helpful.
1) try sa pulls with barrel open
2) load empties in the barrel and try da pulls
3) if 1 & 2 check out, head to hand/extractor.

The way it feels, I'm betting on marred extractor face. The action is slow to go back to full reset as the pull weight increases during da pulls. That 12lb rebound spring is struggling, and telling me something is binding somewhere on the reset, as well as the pull.

 

[armorer951]

Your 12lb rebound spring is working pretty hard during the trigger return phase

..........overcoming the tension exterted on the hammer seat/rebound seat surfaces by the mainspring, drag from the forward pressure on the hand as it is pulled back down over the next ratchet head, overcoming the forward pressure from the sear spring, and the forward spring pressure from the cylinder stop spring exerted on the bevel of the stop as it rides over the trigger hook.
All this, along with overcoming any pressure from incidental contact with the frame, sideplate or the hammer/trigger bosses, your trigger finger......and interfacing the hammer block back up between the frame and hammer.

Quite a job. That's why I use a 14lb rebound spring.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

What wouldn't make sense though is the pull weight is varying based on rotation. Wouldn't this rule out the internals that make the same movement every pull?

So, along with the pull weight going up or down I can also feel the action struggling or not struggling to reset.

This is certainly an issue associated with the cylinder turning. If it had anything to do with the exact repetition movements it would be replicated on every pull.

 

[armorer951]

So the SA pull weights and the trigger return are consistent when the cylinder is out?

 

[Pdxrealtor]

I will perform that test this evening. My guess is yes.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Spent some time on this last night. Pulls are consistent in SA, and when the cylinder is out and the bolt is held back so the trigger will pull.

The b/c gap is pretty consistent on all charge holes. It's a little tighter on a couple, but the .007 gauge still fits on the tight ones and the .008 won't fit on the looser ones.

I have some wear on the side of the hand. I can see where it scapes the side of the frame. Perhaps this combined with the hand rubbing the ejector plays into the cause.

Where can I get a file small enough and without side filing so I can smooth up the ejector surface without risking the other parts of the ejector?

Open to other suggestions as well.

 

[armorer951]

Perhaps you could degrease and mark the parts with Dykem or Sharpie to determine exactly where the contact is before potential damage is done to the extractor. (empty casings inserted)

Seems it would make better sense and be much less expensive to go through the "modify/damage/replace" scenario of inexperience with a potentially slightly oversized hand than to pay someone to replace a ruined extractor.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Perhaps you could degrease and mark the parts with Dykem or Sharpie to determine exactly where the contact is before potential damage is done to the extractor. (empty casings inserted)

Seems it would make better sense and be much less expensive to go through the "modify/damage/replace" scenario of inexperience with a potentially slightly oversized hand than to pay someone to replace a ruined extractor.

I could surely do that. Could you elaborate on exactly what part to put the Dykem on, and exactly what I'm looking for?

I thought the hand was supposed to contact the extractor face and side on push up.

The problem is only on one charge hole and I can't see or feel anything out of the norm on the extractor face.

Here's pics of both the extractor and the hand where you can see it's been rubbing the frame.

 

[armorer951]

Contact between the hand and the hand window in the frame is normal, in fact, essential. Polishing with crocus cloth would be acceptable but I would definately not stone the hand or alter the hand window in the frame.

You should be able to observe and better determine the point of contact between the hand and the ratchets...... which is on the outer side of the ratchet, and the inner side of the hand..... by watching carefully from behind/through the hand window in the frame as you work the assembled action slowly using the hammer. (No mainspring necessary) A magnifier and good lighting will help. I would also install empty casings, as the alignment of the extractor is slightly different (a very important slight difference) when casings are used.
The oversized/offending ratchet, if there is one, should become very evident. You should perhaps even feel the problem ratchet as you pull back the hammer slowly, just before the hammer locks fully back. Dykem or Sharpie can confirm where the hand is contacting the individual ratchets. What is the thickness of the hand in the gun?
Again, I would use caution here, as special tools are required. Changing to a slightly "thinner" hand would be much better way to go that cutting the ratchet, as long as proper carry up is maintained.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Ok. I got it.

One question. Trigger pull is normally consistent without casings installed.... so..... why is it important to insert the casing in an effort to find the offending ratchet?

Actually two questions - the offending ratchet will have a problem area that is on the flat, lower face, surface of the extractor assembly. Correct?

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Here is a picture to help. The red areas are what is touched by the hand on the up cylinder rotation stroke, and the blue area is what is touched by the hand on the hands down stroke.

The red area being rough, high, burred, etc would cause a jump in trigger weight?

FWIW the blue mark is the charge hole that pulls 1lb higher on the trigger gauge. Every time.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Great suggestion! I've been trying to watch that darned hand/ratchet interaction through the side and boy it's tough!

Where can I get the files to use in this area? Not saying I'm going to even touch it, but, eventually I will need to touch one with a file and I'd like to know what kind and where to get them.