Revolver Action Job Question

[Pdxrealtor]

I have this 586 L comp I picked up not too long ago. It has almost a full lb of trigger pull between shots 1-7.

I have other revolvers and they are dead on every pull, so it's not my gauge or technique.

What would cause this variation. After seeing it on the gauge, I can easily feel it, but I can't really tell where it's coming from.

 

[tomcatt51]

Two common causes:

Extractor rod doesn't run true.

Inconsistent ratchets.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Thanks Tomcatt. Got one hour into the Jerry Miculeck video last night and figured it had to have something to do with those ratchets or the hand.

The ejector rod is straight..... put an air compressor hose angled at the chamber holes and made it spin. Straight as can be.

Looks like I get to learn about polishing up the ratchets.

 

[ontargetagain]

Does this situation exist only on DA or both DA and SA?
Is there any chance you have any fouling on front of cylinder that is dragging on the forcing cone?
DO you have the original grips on it?
Karl

 

[Pdxrealtor]

I didn't test the SA multiple times, but don't recall noticing a difference.

There were no grips on the gun

 

[steelslaver]

Check the gap at each chamber to forcing cone to see if the cylinder face is square. Might be dragging a bit on part of the cylinder. if not, look at the ratchet with good magnification. If the gun is locking up before the hand is done moving you will often see a little burr on that ratchet tooth. I use a super fine (600 grit), very small diamond file. DO NOT file file. Make one short stroke holding file flat to surface. Try it. Some of my files have one side ground off so it does not cut except on the surface I desire to cut.

Real precision work can and is done with files. Tool and die makers use them all the time. Lots of stuff is messed up by poor filing.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Check the gap at each chamber to forcing cone to see if the cylinder face is square. Might be dragging a bit on part of the cylinder. if not, look at the ratchet with good magnification. If the gun is locking up before the hand is done moving you will often see a little burr on that ratchet tooth. I use a super fine (600 grit), very small diamond file. DO NOT file file. Make one short stroke holding file flat to surface. Try it. Some of my files have one side ground off so it does not cut except on the surface I desire to cut.

Real precision work can and is done with files. Tool and die makers use them all the time. Lots of stuff is messed up by poor filing.

I did check the b/c gap and it will rotate completely with .008. It does get a tad tighter as it rotates, but not enough to lock the action up.

Any specific file you suggest? I have a some diamonds, but they are cheap harbor freight.

 

[armorer951]

Ratchets are finish cut with a 4" barrette file. Considerable training and experience is required. I wouldn't risk ruining the ratchets before determining if they are the cause of the problem. Have you tried checking the SA pull when the cylinder is open? This would tell you if the inconsistency in the pull is being caused by an oversized ratchet, or if the problem has another cause, unrelated to the relationship between the hand and ratchet/extractor assy.
Have you checked it with empty casings in the cylinder? Alignment of the extractor (and ratchets) is different with casings inserted than it is when the chambers are empty.

If the ratchets are oversized for the existing hand, depending on the size of the hand that is in the gun, you may be able to substitute a slightly thinner (.001-.002") hand and solve the problem, as long as proper carry up is maintained. Replacing the hand would eliminate the problem without having to remove material from any offending ratchet(s)......and would be far less expensive that having to have a new extractor fit to the gun if the extractor is overcut/damaged.

Also, if the gun is new, a suitable break in period and some some dry firing may mitigate the perceived problem, and eliminate the need for intervention or modification.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

This is a 586 l comp, pc gun so one would think proper hand fitment would have been covered.

I have not tried sa with barrel open, will try this.

I'm thinking the extractor may be marred, not sized wrong? I have others I can comlare to, and the jerry mickuleck video to reference.

Perhaps a step by step would be helpful.
1) try sa pulls with barrel open
2) load empties in the barrel and try da pulls
3) if 1 & 2 check out, head to hand/extractor.

The way it feels, I'm betting on marred extractor face. The action is slow to go back to full reset as the pull weight increases during da pulls. That 12lb rebound spring is struggling, and telling me something is binding somewhere on the reset, as well as the pull.

 

[armorer951]

Your 12lb rebound spring is working pretty hard during the trigger return phase

..........overcoming the tension exterted on the hammer seat/rebound seat surfaces by the mainspring, drag from the forward pressure on the hand as it is pulled back down over the next ratchet head, overcoming the forward pressure from the sear spring, and the forward spring pressure from the cylinder stop spring exerted on the bevel of the stop as it rides over the trigger hook.
All this, along with overcoming any pressure from incidental contact with the frame, sideplate or the hammer/trigger bosses, your trigger finger......and interfacing the hammer block back up between the frame and hammer.

Quite a job. That's why I use a 14lb rebound spring.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

What wouldn't make sense though is the pull weight is varying based on rotation. Wouldn't this rule out the internals that make the same movement every pull?

So, along with the pull weight going up or down I can also feel the action struggling or not struggling to reset.

This is certainly an issue associated with the cylinder turning. If it had anything to do with the exact repetition movements it would be replicated on every pull.

 

[armorer951]

So the SA pull weights and the trigger return are consistent when the cylinder is out?

 

[Pdxrealtor]

I will perform that test this evening. My guess is yes.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Spent some time on this last night. Pulls are consistent in SA, and when the cylinder is out and the bolt is held back so the trigger will pull.

The b/c gap is pretty consistent on all charge holes. It's a little tighter on a couple, but the .007 gauge still fits on the tight ones and the .008 won't fit on the looser ones.

I have some wear on the side of the hand. I can see where it scapes the side of the frame. Perhaps this combined with the hand rubbing the ejector plays into the cause.

Where can I get a file small enough and without side filing so I can smooth up the ejector surface without risking the other parts of the ejector?

Open to other suggestions as well.

 

[armorer951]

Perhaps you could degrease and mark the parts with Dykem or Sharpie to determine exactly where the contact is before potential damage is done to the extractor. (empty casings inserted)

Seems it would make better sense and be much less expensive to go through the "modify/damage/replace" scenario of inexperience with a potentially slightly oversized hand than to pay someone to replace a ruined extractor.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Perhaps you could degrease and mark the parts with Dykem or Sharpie to determine exactly where the contact is before potential damage is done to the extractor. (empty casings inserted)

Seems it would make better sense and be much less expensive to go through the "modify/damage/replace" scenario of inexperience with a potentially slightly oversized hand than to pay someone to replace a ruined extractor.

I could surely do that. Could you elaborate on exactly what part to put the Dykem on, and exactly what I'm looking for?

I thought the hand was supposed to contact the extractor face and side on push up.

The problem is only on one charge hole and I can't see or feel anything out of the norm on the extractor face.

Here's pics of both the extractor and the hand where you can see it's been rubbing the frame.

 

[armorer951]

Contact between the hand and the hand window in the frame is normal, in fact, essential. Polishing with crocus cloth would be acceptable but I would definately not stone the hand or alter the hand window in the frame.

You should be able to observe and better determine the point of contact between the hand and the ratchets...... which is on the outer side of the ratchet, and the inner side of the hand..... by watching carefully from behind/through the hand window in the frame as you work the assembled action slowly using the hammer. (No mainspring necessary) A magnifier and good lighting will help. I would also install empty casings, as the alignment of the extractor is slightly different (a very important slight difference) when casings are used.
The oversized/offending ratchet, if there is one, should become very evident. You should perhaps even feel the problem ratchet as you pull back the hammer slowly, just before the hammer locks fully back. Dykem or Sharpie can confirm where the hand is contacting the individual ratchets. What is the thickness of the hand in the gun?
Again, I would use caution here, as special tools are required. Changing to a slightly "thinner" hand would be much better way to go that cutting the ratchet, as long as proper carry up is maintained.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Ok. I got it.

One question. Trigger pull is normally consistent without casings installed.... so..... why is it important to insert the casing in an effort to find the offending ratchet?

Actually two questions - the offending ratchet will have a problem area that is on the flat, lower face, surface of the extractor assembly. Correct?

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Here is a picture to help. The red areas are what is touched by the hand on the up cylinder rotation stroke, and the blue area is what is touched by the hand on the hands down stroke.

The red area being rough, high, burred, etc would cause a jump in trigger weight?

FWIW the blue mark is the charge hole that pulls 1lb higher on the trigger gauge. Every time.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Great suggestion! I've been trying to watch that darned hand/ratchet interaction through the side and boy it's tough!

Where can I get the files to use in this area? Not saying I'm going to even touch it, but, eventually I will need to touch one with a file and I'd like to know what kind and where to get them.

 

[armorer951]

Adding casings changes the position of the extractor slightly, and holds it firmly in the same "in service" alignment with the body of the cylinder, as when it is during firing. Movement of the extractor in the face of the cylinder is minimal without casings, but this slight movement has a huge affect on carry up, and "fitting" issues. It can, and should, be almost completely eliminated with an empty casing or two when checking carry up, etc.

The red marked "voided" or milled out areas are never in contact with the hand, or shouldn't be. Hand contact at the beginning of the ratchet pick up phase is on the side of the blue colored area at the bottom, as you are looking through the frame window.... and the top of the hand. As the cylinder is rotated, and the ratchet and hand rise, contact between the hand and ratchet slowly changes to the side of the ratchet and the side of the hand, and when lock up ocurrs the side of the hand passes by the side of the ratchet body. It's this point on the ratchet body that must be "fit" or cut, so that the hand doesn't continue to impart an undo amount of force to the ratchet after lock up.....which can cause binding. If you watch the process through the hand window you can actually see what surfaces on the hand and ratchet body that are involved in this critical process.
During trigger return, the hand simply moves back down over, and under the edge of the next ratchet in the sequence.

As I previously indicated, cutting/fitting ratchets requires special tools and training. If you have an offending oversized ratchet, you may be able to alleviate the problem by a suitable break in period, or with dry firing....or worst case, replacement of the existing hand with a slightly (.001") thinner one.

 

[MygunisaS&Wrevolver]

Maybe one more thing to check. I would mark the offending cylinder with a piece of tape or a gray sharpie and make sure that this is the same cylinder that has the heavier double action pull. If it is, look at the ratchet face for that cylinder, it should be the one that is at 1 or 2 o'clock from the cylinder that the firing pin dropped on. Degrease that ratchet and mark the surface with a sharpie and let dry. Then making sure your gun is empty, dry fire 12 or so times. Look at that ratchet surface and see if the hand contact is nice and square as indicated by the wear on the sharpie marking. You mentioned that the extracter rod ran straight but what about the center pin as it engages into the bolt hole on the breech face? I have also seen a high ratchets drag on the breech face but normally that would cause it to drag all of the time. You could still mark the top of the ratchet and cycle the gun and look and see if any of the sharpie marking was worn off. I am definately not an expert but thought that maybe you could try some of these less intrusive things before moving to the barrette file, which really requires practice and experience. Good luck and I hope I didn't muddy the waters for you.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I know very little about this subject, but based on an actual experience with a 25-2, I am going to raise one possibility. Even if it works, you may not consider it a fix.

Here it is: Lubricate the internals, particularly the hand, but also the rebound slide and spring, sear and trigger surfaces etc., with RIG +P Stainless Steel Lube. Use this stuff very sparingly, but get it every place where there is or may be high pressure friction. I don't think that it would hurt to even get a little on the extractor.

After reassembling the revolver and trying the action, you may find the problem gone, and possibly even lose interest in further investigation.

Doesn't cost much to try.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Maybe one more thing to check. I would mark the offending cylinder with a piece of tape or a gray sharpie and make sure that this is the same cylinder that has the heavier double action pull. If it is, look at the ratchet face for that cylinder, it should be the one that is at 1 or 2 o'clock from the cylinder that the firing pin dropped on. Degrease that ratchet and mark the surface with a sharpie and let dry. Then making sure your gun is empty, dry fire 12 or so times. Look at that ratchet surface and see if the hand contact is nice and square as indicated by the wear on the sharpie marking. You mentioned that the extracter rod ran straight but what about the center pin as it engages into the bolt hole on the breech face? I have also seen a high ratchets drag on the breech face but normally that would cause it to drag all of the time. You could still mark the top of the ratchet and cycle the gun and look and see if any of the sharpie marking was worn off. I am definately not an expert but thought that maybe you could try some of these less intrusive things before moving to the barrette file, which really requires practice and experience. Good luck and I hope I didn't muddy the waters for you.

Thanks... see above for pics of my marked cylinder. it's the same one every time.

I know very little about this subject, but based on an actual experience with a 25-2, I am going to raise one possibility. Even if it works, you may not consider it a fix.

Here it is: Lubricate the internals, particularly the hand, but also the rebound slide and spring, sear and trigger surfaces etc., with RIG +P Stainless Steel Lube. Use this stuff very sparingly, but get it every place where there is or may be high pressure friction. I don't think that it would hurt to even get a little on the extractor.

After reassembling the revolver and trying the action, you may find the problem gone, and possibly even lose interest in further investigation.

Doesn't cost much to try.

I have it all lubed now with Slip Extreme Weapons Grease. It's in all my other revolvers as well.

Is the stuff you mention different than a good synthetic grease?

In any event there is something wrong and putting any type of substance on it would only be covering it up. I enjoy this very much so it's not all that much hassle to figure it out.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Adding casings changes the position of the extractor slightly, and holds it firmly in the same "in service" alignment with the body of the cylinder, as when it is during firing. Movement of the extractor in the face of the cylinder is minimal without casings, but this slight movement has a huge affect on carry up, and "fitting" issues. It can, and should, be almost completely eliminated with an empty casing or two when checking carry up, etc.

The red marked "voided" or milled out areas are never in contact with the hand, or shouldn't be. Hand contact at the beginning of the ratchet pick up phase is on the side of the blue colored area at the bottom, as you are looking through the frame window.... and the top of the hand. As the cylinder is rotated, and the ratchet and hand rise, contact between the hand and ratchet slowly changes to the side of the ratchet and the side of the hand, and when lock up ocurrs the side of the hand passes by the side of the ratchet body. It's this point on the ratchet body that must be "fit" or cut, so that the hand doesn't continue to impart an undo amount of force to the ratchet after lock up.....which can cause binding. If you watch the process through the hand window you can actually see what surfaces on the hand and ratchet body that are involved in this critical process.
During trigger return, the hand simply moves back down over, and under the edge of the next ratchet in the sequence.

As I previously indicated, cutting/fitting ratchets requires special tools and training. If you have an offending oversized ratchet, you may be able to alleviate the problem by a suitable break in period, or with dry firing....or worst case, replacement of the existing hand with a slightly (.001") thinner one.

What tools and where can I find them? I don't plan to touch this gun in that area if not advised to do so, but I do plan to pickup a project gun for learning.

This is a 1k dollar PC gun. 586 L comp. In reality, I should be boxing it up and sending it in.

PS thanks for the continued explanation. I think I have enough to get me through a night of learning the interaction between the hand and ratchet. And possibly finding the problem area!

 

[MygunisaS&Wrevolver]

Sorry, I guess I should read all of the postings (old age) and looked at the pic closer before replying and I see that you marked the offending cylinder. I believe that your model 586 uses the new MIM, metal injected parts and has that new type of MIM ratchet. I have never worked on the new MIM parts guns. Things have changed here, I don't think you can file on that ratchet because you will remove the hardened surface and then you will really get things to wear. I think any of the guns made after 97 are MIM guns and Kuhnhausen says to send them back to Smith & Wesson for repair and not try it yourself. I am sure that the other readers will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Sorry, I guess I should read all of the postings (old age) and looked at the pic closer before replying and I see that you marked the offending cylinder. I believe that your model 586 uses the new MIM, metal injected parts and has that new type of MIM ratchet. I have never worked on the new MIM parts guns. Things have changed here, I don't think you can file on that ratchet because you will remove the hardened surface and then you will really get things to wear. I think any of the guns made after 97 are MIM guns and Kuhnhausen says to send them back to Smith & Wesson for repair and not try it yourself. I am sure that the other readers will correct me if I am wrong.

No problem. I really appreciate all the input I can get!

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Thanks... see above for pics of my marked cylinder. it's the same one every time.



I have it all lubed now with Slip Extreme Weapons Grease. It's in all my other revolvers as well.

Is the stuff you mention different than a good synthetic grease?

In any event there is something wrong and putting any type of substance on it would only be covering it up. I enjoy this very much so it's not all that much hassle to figure it out.

if you are already using a really good grease, then my suggestion is probably not worth anything. The reason I did bring it up is that since it's only a pound off, it sounds like friction, and the +P really shines in what I think are fairly high-pressure applications, like sears and several elements of 1911 lockup. I once bought a used 25-2, gave it to a good gunsmith, who put shims where they belonged, fitted a rounded & polished trigger, and chamfered charge holes. He lubed it with Ed's Red, a favorite of his. When I got it back, it had a slight hitch in DA, all chambers. I disassembled it, dried it off from the Ed's Red, and relubed it thoroughly but very lightly with +P. The hitch went away and never came back.

 

[Pdxrealtor]

Alright guys.... I've been up all night and a side from the L-comp getting a complete trigger job courtesy of Jerry Mickulek I've done everything possible but hit those ratchet verticals, and where the verticals meet the face at the 90*.

While it's worth noting some ratchets stick out a tad more than others (as viewed from the back/through the window) it turns out that's not the problem. I now understand though.... how to fit those ratchets. Slowly, carefully, paying careful attention to maintain hand off, or lift off, or whatever the proper term is. Note that because I understand does not in any way mean if I attempted to do so it would turn out a success.

However, lack of the proper tool led me to get creative. I took another revolver, my 686+, and swapped cylinder/yokes around until I narrowed the problem down to the Yoke of the 586. Without any doubt, it's the yoke.

So... my guess would be it's bent. Any other things to check on the yoke?

Happy I got it figured out. Will be happier when it's fixed.

 

[armorer951]

Seems odd that the yoke being out of alignment would affect only one ratchet.

You might also check that the end of the yoke barrel is square.....and that it's seat/bearing surface inside the cylinder is also square and free from burrs.

Yoke alignment tools are available.

YOKE/CRANE ALIGNMENT TOOL | Brownells

(tool #2 for K, L, N)