Yes, I agree with Toolguy. Look at where the ramp meets the actual notch. Shouldn't be that much of a ledge and the fact that the "drag" line is forward of the center of the ramp. That part of it might be the shape of the bolt itself.
Revolver notches peening
- Thread starter wboustany
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gwpercle
Member
What you are seeing is normal ....do as StakeOut (post #11) recommends. A lot of double action work , especially dry firing , will do this. Nothing to get alarmed about, it's just normal wear that happens from 4000 DA cycles. Smooth the edges with a stone.
Less rapid dry firing will extend the life of any gun but like a car ....if you drive it , it's going to get a little wear and tear on it .
Just remove and smooth up the notch edges and carry on.
Gary
Less rapid dry firing will extend the life of any gun but like a car ....if you drive it , it's going to get a little wear and tear on it .
Just remove and smooth up the notch edges and carry on.
Gary
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Protocall_Design
Member
This is not normal. This situation causes the cylinder to skip a chamber and come to rest in between or go to the next one.
Bill In Texas
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Welcome to the Neighborhood!
I will try to find a competent gunsmith, perhaps next door in Switzerland.
smoothing the cylinder stop edges, if that is a viable solution, is probably the only thing I can do on my level.
See below a few pics of how the cylinder stop looks like,
upload pic
You can notice where the black coating (the opposite side where the peening is occuring) is going away, seems like only the third of it is connecting. I wonder if the stop is even, or if it is not sitting a in a slightly oblique/inclined position.
Should I file the stops edges to make them less "edgy" ? Acquiring this part is easy, messing one up is no big deal.
How about filing the top of it, perhaps the changing the shape of it would have it hit nearer to the ramps center ?
smoothing the cylinder stop edges, if that is a viable solution, is probably the only thing I can do on my level.
See below a few pics of how the cylinder stop looks like,
upload pic
You can notice where the black coating (the opposite side where the peening is occuring) is going away, seems like only the third of it is connecting. I wonder if the stop is even, or if it is not sitting a in a slightly oblique/inclined position.
Should I file the stops edges to make them less "edgy" ? Acquiring this part is easy, messing one up is no big deal.
How about filing the top of it, perhaps the changing the shape of it would have it hit nearer to the ramps center ?
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Protocall_Design
Member
Thanks for reminding us, Bill! Welcome to the asylum, wboustany!
Cylinder stop is fine. Don't mess with it.
Cylinder stop is fine. Don't mess with it.
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iPac
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Excellent first post Toolguy, and I'm glad you spoke up again so this is clear to everyone. I got to learn something new today.
It seems you nailed it, and you can tell how long you've been tinkering with these.
My 629-2E 3" from 1989 has practically the same lead and notch system as on this new one, the updated long notches of the endurance package, but the leads are just as shallow after another review due to this thread.
I have some notch peening. At first, I thought it was just due to the steel unfluted cylinder, but now after checking, it is only at the top, and due to the shallow leads contributing, along with the heavy unfluted cylinder of course.
My bolt (stop) "path" is mostly centered until it gets to the lead, then it is slightly off centered towards the front while in the lead, but not as far off as the OP's example. I don't think a little bit of off center-ness matters with the bolt head, but I may be wrong. I think it's more the other factors all contributing to the issue.
Would have been nice to know this when Frank Glenn had it. No more fast DA or cocking I suppose.
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SLT223
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Yes, but that's it the first time I've seen stop-notch guides cut north of max diameter such that they are egg shaped. I strongly doubt there is any ill effect, but is interesting to me since I've never seen it before.
Protocall_Design
Member
To iPac - Not really my first post, but no big deal. If you want to send me your cylinder and pay postage both ways, I will fix it as a Pro Bono Karma. I would make the offer to the OP, but he's in France and shipping that back and forth isn't happening, thanks to international laws.
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Pisgah
Member
And the specs of the revolver linked in one of the posts specify stainless steel frame and cylinder.
GCF
Member
I will try to find a competent gunsmith, perhaps next door in Switzerland.
smoothing the cylinder stop edges, if that is a viable solution, is probably the only thing I can do on my level.
See below a few pics of how the cylinder stop looks like,
upload pic
You can notice where the black coating (the opposite side where the peening is occuring) is going away, seems like only the third of it is connecting. I wonder if the stop is even, or if it is not sitting a in a slightly oblique/inclined position.
Should I file the stops edges to make them less "edgy" ? Acquiring this part is easy, messing one up is no big deal.
How about filing the top of it, perhaps the changing the shape of it would have it hit nearer to the ramps center ?
Suggest you don't file on the cylinder bolt (stop), as it looks OK.
Go back & re-read Tool Guy's post #20. Pretty sure he is on to something.
SLT223
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Yes, but that's it the first time I've seen stop-notch guides cut north of max diameter such that they are egg shaped. I strongly doubt there is any ill effect, but is interesting to me since I've never seen it before.
Edit,
And off center...If I had free time I would send the pics to S&W just to get their opinion. The may replace the cylinder...
"You can notice where the black coating (the opposite side where the peening is occuring) is going away, seems like only the third of it is connecting. I wonder if the stop is even, or if it is not sitting a in a slightly oblique/inclined position."
Cylinder stops are not flat on the top of the ball, but are slightly higher on the "frame" side, or the left side when looking from back to front. Wear is more prominent at the crown of the ball at this point. (high side)
Cylinder stops are not flat on the top of the ball, but are slightly higher on the "frame" side, or the left side when looking from back to front. Wear is more prominent at the crown of the ball at this point. (high side)
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ggibson511960
Member
Mis-cut Notches
I looked at a few of my S&W revolvers and didn't see any egg shaped notches. Looks to me like the cutting tool was set to cutt too shallow and left a double tapered scallop instead of a continuously deepening ramp leading to the bolt notch. This would have the effect of pushing the bolt back down as it followed the notch, depending on how close the bolt was timed. There's supposed to be just a small step to let the bolt rise a short distance into locking engagement. The way these notches are cut the bolt will be pushed back down out of engagement before springing back up to engage. If the cylinder is spun fast enough the bolt will smack into the far side of the notch instead of the bottom, hastening the peening effect seen in the photos. The other bad thing might be simple mis-alignment of the stop notches. When the piece is fired those mis-aligned notches and the bolt get forcibly lined up as the bullet engages the throat, also peening the notch side as shown. If this piece were mine I would either sell or have S&W take a look.
I looked at a few of my S&W revolvers and didn't see any egg shaped notches. Looks to me like the cutting tool was set to cutt too shallow and left a double tapered scallop instead of a continuously deepening ramp leading to the bolt notch. This would have the effect of pushing the bolt back down as it followed the notch, depending on how close the bolt was timed. There's supposed to be just a small step to let the bolt rise a short distance into locking engagement. The way these notches are cut the bolt will be pushed back down out of engagement before springing back up to engage. If the cylinder is spun fast enough the bolt will smack into the far side of the notch instead of the bottom, hastening the peening effect seen in the photos. The other bad thing might be simple mis-alignment of the stop notches. When the piece is fired those mis-aligned notches and the bolt get forcibly lined up as the bullet engages the throat, also peening the notch side as shown. If this piece were mine I would either sell or have S&W take a look.
Tex1001
Member
I agree with toolguy and steelslayer. From your pictures I also see a slight ridge at the end of the bevel (I've marked this point A in your picture). this bevel could make the lockup bolt "hop" slightly as it passes over. The bolt would not fall directly into the notch, but would contact point B on its high point, causing the peening, then fall into the notch.
As a S&W armorer, I've not seen this situation before, but with a small round file it should be easy to correct.
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Thank you guys for taking time to advise me on this,
I am have a much clearer picture of what's going on now .
I have contacted Smith & Wesson's rep office in France to see if the terms of the guarantee would take this in charge.
If not, I will most have the ramp filed the way you advise.
Do you think that a stronger stop spring (wolf springs sell one) would reduce the tearing ?
I am have a much clearer picture of what's going on now .
I have contacted Smith & Wesson's rep office in France to see if the terms of the guarantee would take this in charge.
If not, I will most have the ramp filed the way you advise.
Do you think that a stronger stop spring (wolf springs sell one) would reduce the tearing ?
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Protocall_Design
Member
On this one, I would do anything that might help. I say yes, get the spring. It will help a little bit, but not a substitute for making the ramps right.
The more I look at the pictures the more I see. I believe your cylinder was mis machined. The ramps are not centered to the notches and the should be. Look at the turn line. It is centered to the notch. There is much more notch in front of the ramp than behind. Should be even. I would be asking for another cylinder. I guess, the ramps could also be filed forward and centered when adding depth. You shouldn't need a stronger spring. If the bolt is bouncing like Tex1001 thinks, it might make it worse by slamming the leading bolt down even harder on the far edge of the notch.
This gun needs to go back to a repair center, Its not right, should be and needs to be and another thing is the cylinder has a treatment on its exterior and filing will remove that. I doubt that is a huge deal function wise.
This gun needs to go back to a repair center, Its not right, should be and needs to be and another thing is the cylinder has a treatment on its exterior and filing will remove that. I doubt that is a huge deal function wise.
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OLDSTER
Member
peening
This is a photo of my 642. Over a thousand rounds shot, and probably a thousand dry fires. This cylinder is aligned pretty good evidence by thin, nearly centered turn line, and virtually no peening. Don't know if this is the reason for lack of peening
This is a photo of my 642. Over a thousand rounds shot, and probably a thousand dry fires. This cylinder is aligned pretty good evidence by thin, nearly centered turn line, and virtually no peening. Don't know if this is the reason for lack of peening
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iPac
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I know it's not your first post, I was referring to the first one of this thread. I have observed how much experience you have working on these guns, so I pay attention when your types speak. As I'm still learning the intricacies of S&W revolver smithing, I started with Colt V springs.
I very much appreciate the offer. Actually, if I had a proper round file, I imagine I could do it myself by hand as mentioned. I will keep you in mind though, but will have to pull the 629 and give it another exam. Either way, I may contact you for more detailed specs if I decide to pursue anything.
Mine is not near as bad as the OPs, mainly because it hasn't been shot fast DA that much. Slowing down on the trigger pull and hammer cocking will do wonders on their own to stop this phenomena.
As to the cylinder leads and notches, all those who think the "leads" are milled off center to the notch are incorrect. Once the endurance package updated the stop notches to the long variety, the leads are off center and that is by design.
Now my question for Toolguy, and any other armorer/smith, the shallow lead ins, would you consider this a "design flaw" on S&W's part???
Because mine was made in '89 and the OP's is a new one, so this means they have probably been machining those shallow leads for quite a while. Actually, this might be why I keep seeing "notch peening" on certain examples that are shared here, but I keep my mouth shut usually as to not rain on parades, but I have noticed it is fairly common. However, I have not paid attention to the specific models when I observe this.
Here is a pic of mine:
Please read my comment above.
If the cylinder lead was centered to the notch, then the bolt/stop would almost be riding on the bare cylinder or at least the extreme rear edge of the lead, because the bolt is stationary in the frame. The cylinder notches and leads need to be cut in alignment with the bolt/stop, not the other way around. Just think about it for a second.
This is by design with the endurance update.
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