Rifle Confiscated

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Two important points:
The mayor doesn't live on that street and that street is not "on the way" to the mayor's house.
That gate (Kingshighway) is typically chain locked as well as the gates on the other side (Union Blvd) of Portland Place. The only access (entry and exit) to those two private streets is off Lindell. Just walking onto and out of those streets ain't a thing.

It was reported that the other entries to the neighborhood were blocked by police at the time. To get to the mayor's house, from where the march started, that was the only way to go.

Here's a photo essay of the whole march and protest, clearly showing them at the Mayor's house after passing the McCloskeys'.

Protesters in St. Louis Demand Mayor Resign, Have Guns Pointed at Them [PHOTOS]
 
It was reported that the other entries to the neighborhood were blocked by police at the time. To get to the mayor's house, from where the march started, that was the only way to go.

Here's a photo essay of the whole march and protest, clearly showing them at the Mayor's house after passing the McCloskeys'.

Protesters in St. Louis Demand Mayor Resign, Have Guns Pointed at Them [PHOTOS]

The first words in the attached story are "nonviolent protest"
It made me feel all happy and warm to hear that. I didn't even have to read further.

Thanks Riverfront Times.
 
The first words in the attached story are "nonviolent protest"
It made me feel all happy and warm to hear that. I didn't even have to read further.

Thanks Riverfront Times.

I know nothing about the Riverfront Times. Are you questioning the veracity of the photos?
 
I know nothing about the Riverfront Times. Are you questioning the veracity of the photos?

I know nothing about them either but I can guess that they're biased by the way they start the article. Anyone can arange pictures and make a story, why do you think these "protesters" like to take videos/photos with their cells? Later on supply the best images to fit their narrative. Just delete what don't fit.

Why am I explaining this?
 
The first words in the attached story are "nonviolent protest"
It made me feel all happy and warm to hear that. I didn't even have to read further.

Thanks Riverfront Times.

Ok, here's the rest of the story that you may
never see anywhere but here: Most of the
homes in the neighborhood were looted or
burned but only the residence of the couple
with guns was saved. And the mayor quit
and now has a job at a Walmart in Fargo,
N.D.
 
Ok, here's the rest of the story that you may
never see anywhere but here: Most of the
homes in the neighborhood were looted or
burned but only the residence of the couple
with guns was saved. And the mayor quit
and now has a job at a Walmart in Fargo,
N.D.

Pictures or it might've happened. ;)
 
That they entered the neighborhood by tearing down the gates is an outright lie. I have debunked it upthread, with video.

That video shows no such thing. The only picture of the gate is from a low resolution cell phone video from one of the first through the gate. It could have been broken any time after that.

Toward the end there was a an obviously spliced in photo of the closed gate from an unknown source, but who knows when that photo was taken and by whom.

It is ludicrous to base a conclusion that McCloskeys armed themselves before or after the gate was broken on a video produced and edited by the protesters themselves. I'm not a lawyer, but I have never heard of any court accepting such unauthenticated evidence.

Also, the protesters DID commit at minimum trespass. Was it felonious? That is for the investigators to decide. Breaking and entering does not require any breaking. An uninvited person who enters your house through your unlocked screen door is still guilty of breaking and entering.
 
That video shows no such thing. The only picture of the gate is from a low resolution cell phone video from one of the first through the gate. It could have been broken any time after that.

Right, that's the point I'm making. The gate was still intact as the first group of protesters went through. The couple (at least the guy) was already armed at that point, as can clearly be seen in the video *before* the cut (still at 0:48 - holding rifle).

Anyway, I don't see a point in continuing this conversation. Those who want to push a specific agenda generally don't let facts stand in their way.
 
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Right, that's the point I'm making. The gate was still intact as the first group of protesters went through. The couple (at least the guy) was already armed at that point, as can clearly be seen in the video *before* the cut (still at 0:48 - holding rifle).

Anyway, I don't see a point in continuing this conversation. Those who want to push a specific agenda generally don't let facts stand in their way.

You are asserting that McCloskey KNEW that the protesters DID NOT break the gate when he fetched his rifle.

So questions that need answers:

Could he see the condition of the gate from his house? Its hard to tell, but the house doesn't appear to be entirely visible from the gate, which implies that the gate might not be visible from the house.

Was the gate closed?
Was the gate locked?
Was the gate simply opened, or was a lock broken?
When was the gate broken?

The video starts after the protesters had already trespassed. It doesn't answer any of those questions, and isn't credible evidence anyway.

But the protesters WERE trespassing on private property.

But speaking of pushing agendas,

While the protesters were trespassing on a private street, it was clear they were marching directly down the street and sidewalk to the mayor's house, while yelling chants demanding the mayor resign. I would argue that no reasonable person would be in fear for their life in that situation.

You have deemed only yourself as being qualified to define a 'reasonable person'
You have anointed yourself as the adjudicator of all fact.
You base your facts on unauthenticated evidence.
You characterize those who disagrees with your 'facts' are either liars or stupid.
 
Shades of the virus threads where folks who disagreed with the pack were ridiculed and insulted just barely within the rules.

Galt is the one making (false) insinuations about me and mischaracterizing my argument, while using terms with specific legal meaning incorrectly. Anyway.

Note that I've been extremely clear that I take no position on whether the couple broke the law with their actions. I have read/heard attorneys in MO make arguments both ways. I don't know enough about the specifics of how MO's castle doctrine laws are applied in practice, through case law, to make a more specific claim about that particular issue. I have only spoken of general trends in American law on matters of proportionality.

That said, some here have defended the couple on false grounds - specifically, that their taking up arms was a direct result of witnessing the property damage occur. For that to be possible, the property damage must necessarily have occurred prior to their taking up arms. As the video I posted clearly and unequivocally shows - despite the low resolution - at least one of them took up arms prior to the property damage occurring. Thus, the property damage could not have been the reason they took up arms.

In the abstract, if ones argues that event A caused event B, and it is shown conclusively that event B preceded event A, then the originally argument is logically fallacious and must be abandoned. And yet, here we are.
 
I have to agree with your statement.

Can anyone say "Doofus"?


Personally, if there is going to be some shooting, I'll prefer cover or concealment. I'd have been inside looking out a dark window. When you found out I was there, you wouldn't know it for very long. ;)

How would you explain how you thought your life was in danger?
 
It was reported that the other entries to the neighborhood were blocked by police at the time. To get to the mayor's house, from where the march started, that was the only way to go.

Here's a photo essay of the whole march and protest, clearly showing them at the Mayor's house after passing the McCloskeys'.

Protesters in St. Louis Demand Mayor Resign, Have Guns Pointed at Them [PHOTOS]
Weird, you're way more familiar with the CWE than me. Please elaborate how entering the locked gates on Portland Place is the only way to get to Lake and Washington (the mayor's address). I guess going through one locked gate onto private property then turning north to go through another locked gate is way easier than using Waterman, Westminster, Washington or either of the two access roads none of which have any gates whatsoever to restrict pedestrian traffic. Also, why would the police restrict peaceful protesters? Seems like that would go against their 1st Amendment rights.
 
What's True? Peaceful Protestors, some with weapons, tearing down gates and mob damaging other properties? On the other side Character assassination of home owners, media makes them the aggressors. This is clearly political prosecution. Their gun handling skills don't enter into it. The administration wouldn't send police? There are to many things going on here to make any judgement call from the arm chair.
 
Weird, you're way more familiar with the CWE than me. Please elaborate how entering the locked gates on Portland Place is the only way to get to Lake and Washington (the mayor's address). I guess going through one locked gate onto private property then turning north to go through another locked gate is way easier than using Waterman, Westminster, Washington or either of the two access roads none of which have any gates whatsoever to restrict pedestrian traffic. Also, why would the police restrict peaceful protesters? Seems like that would go against their 1st Amendment rights.

Daniel Shular, a local reporter, took one of the videos and said he watched the entire roughly 10-minute long incident unfold. About 500 protesters were cutting through Portland Place, according to Shular, to bypass road closures nearby that blocked access to the mayor's home.

"A door next to the gate at Portland Place was unlocked and protesters went through it to cut through the neighborhood to get to Krewson's house"

St. Louis couple pulls firearms on protesters cutting through their private street
 
What does it tell you when police protection is denied, for political purposes. No protestors are getting arrested for anything. The Liberals do send Police to arrest home owners and confiscate their weapons. It sounds like the city will get hit by a Federal charge to me. Like civil rights violations Where is ACLU when you need them?
 
Maybe AG Barr should investigate the local DA's and prosecutors in all of these disturbances, to see why there are little in the way of prosecutions.
Sure wish he'd send someone to Wake County to investigate our local DA's.
 
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What's True? Peaceful Protestors, some with weapons, tearing down gates and mob damaging other properties? On the other side Character assassination of home owners, media makes them the aggressors. This is clearly political prosecution. Their gun handling skills don't enter into it. The administration wouldn't send police? There are to many things going on here to make any judgement call from the arm chair.

You really can't credibly make that argument while packing the same paragraph with just such armchair judgments ;)
 
...Personally, if there is going to be some shooting, I'll prefer cover or concealment. I'd have been inside looking out a dark window. When you found out I was there, you wouldn't know it for very long. ;)

How would you explain how you thought your life was in danger?

The "use-self-as-bait" theory of self defense...
 
Perhaps we have been served only selective video, 98% showing a White well off couple in an elite area using poor gun handling techniques. No real view of the crowd and their behavior. After seeing businesses pillaged and burned, police and citizens attacked and a killing or two I can understand how they felt and even untrained doing the best they could to defend themselves and property.
If I were at home during this current rioting activity and my dog, my wife my home or myself threatened with death or destruction I can assure I would defend myself until relieved by law enforcement, which may or may not show up with the current leadership.
 
I don't know how this thing actually went down, and frankly no one else here does either. It's all just opinions and speculation based on what little info is shown from whichever side is trying to make their point.
I was just going to lurk and read but after reading many lament the impressions that the antis are going to take away from this have me baffled.
They are going to take away the the same impressions no matter WHAT actually happened. That much is fact.
They are winning if we begin to behave and speak so as to please them and not incur their wrath.
So pontificate all you want with what little facts we have but please don't do it based on what an anti gunner may think of it.
I quit caring long ago about that when they proved to me it doesn't really matter what the facts are.
 
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Perhaps we have been served only selective video, 98% showing a White well off couple in an elite area using poor gun handling techniques. No real view of the crowd and their behavior. After seeing businesses pillaged and burned, police and citizens attacked and a killing or two I can understand how they felt and even untrained doing the best they could to defend themselves and property.
If I were at home during this current rioting activity and my dog, my wife my home or myself threatened with death or destruction I can assure I would defend myself until relieved by law enforcement, which may or may not show up with the current leadership.

"poor gun handling techniques" That's what you call that?

And nobody is saying that they, or anybody else, SHOULDN"T defend themselves. On the contrary, what they did is put themselves and everybody else in danger. Standing out in the open, waving guns around with your finger on the trigger, is begging to get shot. If anybody in the crowd decided to challenge them, they would have been the first and probably last to go down.

If that is an example of someone defending themselves....count me out. The reality is they could have easily have hunkered down behind concealment and "defended" themselves and their property.
 
Well in many cases when people are thrown into a very stressful position they sometimes forget proper safety procedures .Police have , and i am sure they have better training than the average home owner.Panic sets in when a group of people march into an area .See what happens when the a motor cycle group rides into some areas.It is easy to talk the talk until you are in their place Google the protest in Crown Point ,Indiana the home owners are now being accused of intimidating the marchers .The coments by police sums up the rights of both groups
 
[Senator Josh] Hawley seeks civil rights probe in case of St. Louis couple

U.S. Sen. Josh Hawley on Thursday urged Attorney General William Barr to launch a federal civil rights investigation of St. Louis' elected prosecutor, accusing her of abuse of power in her investigation of a white couple who wielded guns while defending their home during a protest.

Mark and Patricia McCloskey are under Circuit Attorney Kim Gardner's scrutiny for the June 28 confrontation when several hundred protesters marched by their $1.15 million mansion. The couple accused protesters of knocking down an iron gate marked with "No Trespassing" and "Private Street" signs.

Gardner's office was still investigating, but no charges have been filed. Hawley, a Missouri Republican, wrote in a letter to Barr that Gardner abused her power in seizing the couple's guns, investigating them and pursuing a possible indictment. He called her actions "an unacceptable abuse of power and threat to the Second Amendment."

"There is no question under Missouri law that the McCloskeys had the right to own and use their firearms to protect themselves from threatened violence, and that any criminal prosecution for these actions is legally unsound," Hawley wrote. "The only possible motivation for the investigation, then, is a politically motivated attempt to punish this family for exercising their Second Amendment rights."


Hawley seeks civil rights probe in case of St. Louis couple
 
I don't know how this thing actually went down, and frankly no one else here does either. It's all just opinions and speculation based on what little info is shown from whichever side is trying to make their point.
I was just going to lurk and read but after reading many lament the impressions that the antis are going to take away from this have me baffled.
They are going to take away the the same impressions no matter WHAT actually happened. That much is fact.
They are winning if we begin to behave and speak so as to please them and not incur their wrath.
So pontificate all you want with what little facts we have but please don't do it based on what an anti gunner may think of it.
I quit caring long ago about that when they proved to me it doesn't really matter what the facts are.
Can't say it much better. :cool:
 
The poor Attorney General isn't going to get any real work done, with all the folks who come crying for "civil rights investigations" because they don't like some local action.

Meanwhile, that article is interesting for another reason. I hadn't heard about the open letter signed by 24 households from the neighborhood condemning the McCloskeys in polite terms. You can find the text online, with full names of the undersigned. It fits with what's come out about them. They appear as genuine bad apples, terrorizing their neighbors for many years with lawsuits, threats of lawsuits, and in one case pointing a gun.

So not taking their side goes beyond making fun of their gun handling skills or belittling them as overly frightened. There is a documented pattern of unreasonable over-reacting, up to a previous threat of deadly force. Defending characters like these as a matter of 2nd Amendment principle doesn't do the principle any good.
 
This may be the perfect test case. If you aren't aware of it Floyd had a record long as your arm, so did the guy shot at Wendy's. It doesn't matter because past activities don't count. Even the fact that they are on parol and violating it. The violence is coming from the Left. Now we have people who want to bad mouth the home owners for their past actions. In other words they are not likable by their neighbors. What does that matter in this case?
It shouldn't matter at all. They aren't the best kind of people but they have as much rights as the scum that is protesting. Why wouldn't they sue the city every way but loose. They file Federal and they will win.
 
Defending characters like these as a matter of 2nd Amendment principle doesn't do the principle any good.

Then may we assume you would agree to the following if applied to...lets say...the mobs now controlling Portland?

Defending characters like these as a matter of 6th Amendment principle doesn't do the principle any good.
 
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