Round in Chamber

[Deadeye Dick]

IMO the M&P is no more or less dangerous than a modern revolver. Neither will fire unless the trigger be pulled in some way either by a finger, articular of clothing or something else getting into the trigger guard. Use a properly fitted holster with a good retention system, keep your finger off of the trigger until you intend to shoot it and be very careful when drawing and reholstering and you will be fine.

Also IMO the most dangerous gun is an "unloaded" gun. The vast majority of NDs occur when their handler thinks that the gun is unloaded when it isn't.

Always treat a gun as if it is were loaded. Always, always do a visual and tactile inspection of your gun to ensure it is empty prior to doing any work on it. Remember to remove the magazine BEFORE checking the chamber. I once had someone check the chamber of his gun, declare it "empty" then release the bolt stripping a round from the magazine that was still in the gun into the chamber and hand the gun to me. He turned quite red when I removed the magazine and racked the bolt back ejecting a round out of his "empty" gun into the dirt at his feet.

 

[markush]

Whichever handgun I decide to carry for the day...I always make sure to leave it at home unloaded, disassembled, with a cable lock through the slide and another through the barrel. Then lock it all up in my safe which is bricked up inside my walls...just to make sure IT can't hurt anyone...

 

[Deadeye Dick]

Whichever handgun I decide to carry for the day...I always make sure to leave it at home unloaded, disassembled, with a cable lock through the slide and another through the barrel. Then lock it all up in my safe which is bricked up inside my walls...just to make sure IT can't hurt anyone...

With the ammo safely locked in the trunk of your car I hope.

 

[vipermd]

Sigma 40F 1 in chamber, 15 in mags, spare mags, My fear is not that it WILL go off, mine is that it will not go off when needed. I reload my mags every month since the rounds can move slightly with carry, will it cause a problem? I will not find out. I also rotate all 6 mags every 6 months, spring tension? prob not but I look at the ammo, make sure the mags are clean, lubed, functioning, is it needed? I do not know but it gives me piece of mind whether that is perceived or real I do not know. Be Safe,

 

[smithman 10]

Get a revolver

I simply don't understand the "get a revolver" suggestions, regarding this subject. If you pull the trigger on a revolver, it will shoot you just as soundly.

Treat a loaded firearm with respect and *attentiveness* and you'll be just fine. That glock story above is a key example. If your hand is on a loaded firearm, it should be the ONE thing your attention is focused on in that moment....whether a revolver or semi-auto.

Tracy

The double action pull on an unaltered Smith and Wesson J-frame is usually about 12 lbs. On a Glock, I believe the pull weight is about 6. I was thinking that the fellow who died after fooling with his unholstered Glock might not have managed to set off a revolver.

Still, all the posters who point out that you need a good holster that covers the triggerguard are 100% right. Carrying without a holster is an invitation for an accident.

 

[Wheeler57]

A revolver is absolutely safer for an inexperienced shooter. I behooves the inexperienced shooter to become experienced but everyone's first stage of shooting is "inexperienced". If you have been to a gun show recently you can't be unaware of how many inexperienced gun owners there are. I would also point out that many who consider themselves experienced are NOT. This is just the way it is, so I feel giving advice on carrying, one should keep in mind the audience reading the advice. I agree with most that I have read here but all readers are not as familiar with firearms as others.
I do especially like the suggestions to get trained and gain familiarity with. That can never be wrong.

 

[Deadeye Dick]

J-frame and similarly sized revolvers do have trigger pulls in the 10# - 12# range. Full sized, service and especially target revolvers can and do have much lighter triggers as low as 6# DA and as light as a puond or two SA.

Explain to my why a revolver is safer than a pistol.

 

[Wheeler57]

For a novice it is simpler, easier to understand and you can see if it is cocked across the room.

 

[smokey0118]

For a novice it is simpler, easier to understand and you can see if it is cocked across the room.

"all guns are loaded and ready to fire at all time"....this covers that in terms of safe handling practices. As for complexity...
Loading empty revolver:
1) press cylinder release
2) open cylinder
3) load cylinder with either a speed loader, moon-clips, or individually
4) close cylinder
5) press trigger to fire

Loading empty m&p:
1) load magazine
2) insert magazine into gun
3) pull slide to rear and let go
4) press trigger to fire

reloading revolver:
1) press cylinder release
2) open cylinder
3) tilt up and press extractor to remove spent brass from chambers
4) load cylinder with either a speed loader, moon-clips, or individually
5) close cylinder
6) press trigger to fire

reloading m&p:
1) press magazine release
2) load magazine
3) insert magazine into gun
4) pull slide to rear and let go
5) press trigger to fire

Striker-fired guns are pretty dirt simple to operate. The big difference in simplicity is when there is am ammunition-induced malfunction when firing under stress. In the revolver, the motor program to fire is to press the trigger...the motor program to clear a faulty cartridge and fire again is the same thing...to press the trigger. Because your brain only has to use one motor program, the shooter is able to clear the malfunction(assuming it's ammo-based) and continue firing quicker and with less training.

With a semi-automatic, if there is an ammunition-induced malfunction, you've got to recognize the problem and your brain must choose the correct motor program to solve the problem...switch over to the tap/rack/bang and then get back to shooting. With practice, this really only takes a VERY small amount of time. The issue is that under stress, your brain reverts back to basics. Without lots of training under stress with failures, most people won't have the muscle memory built-up to efficiently clear the malfunction.

Once you move away from ammunition-induced failures and in to mechanical failures...revolvers and semi-autos are pretty much equally complex to solve...with revolvers often being much more sensitive to damage from misuse(like torquing the crane when some people flip them closed like in hollywood).

 

[onrope]

I teach the 2 second rule....once you have made the decision to deploy your weapon in a lethal encounter you should be able to deploy...engage the threat and fire a aimed / accurate round in two seconds.

I agree with you about deployment time, but before dismissing the idea of carrying with an empty chamber, I believe it comes down to training (like everything else).

If you search youtube, you'll see a few videos showing the method that the IDF teaches for drawing. Some are well-made, others...not so much.

That being said, the well-made videos will show that with thorough training, one can deploy a firearm and chamber a round very quickly - well within your 2 second rule.

 

[Deadeye Dick]

Smokey, Good post sir.

With a minimum amount of basic instruction I don't see a great deal of difference in the complexity between operating a revolver or a pistol. I believe the operating procedure breakdowns in your post bare this out.

It isn't until you run into some form of stoppage that things get a little more complicated. The best feature of a revolver IMO is that if it doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger just pull it again and you have a fresh round delivered automatically. Although some semi-auto pistols do have second strike capabilities you are still attempting to discharge the same round that failed the first time. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't. The odds of success are much better with a fresh round.

That said, semi-auto pistols have other advantages over a revolver. Higher round capacity. A slimmer profile better for CC. Quicker reload capability given preloaded spare magazines. Yes I know about speed loaders for revolvers but unless you practice diligently with them you would likely never reload quicker than is possible with a semi-auto and a loaded magazine.

With instruction and practice any disadvantages that the pistol may have are easily overcome. When practicing at the range have someone load a dummy round somewhere in each of your magazines so that you can practice clearing stoppages. Practice changing magazines and getting back on target quickly at the range.

Isn't it a good idea to familiarize yourself and practice with a potentially lethal object if you choose to own one. Did any of you just jump into a car and start driving the first time you got behind the wheel? You probably took a driving education course or at the very least were mentored by an experienced driver. Did you jump right onto the freeway or did you practice in vacant parking lots and back roads for a while?

If you choose to own a handgun, any hand gun, isn't it wise to invest at least as much time and effort learning how to properly use it as you invested in learning how to drive?

 

[Deadeye Dick]

I agree with you about deployment time, but before dismissing the idea of carrying with an empty chamber, I believe it comes down to training (like everything else).

If you search youtube, you'll see a few videos showing the method that the IDF teaches for drawing. Some are well-made, others...not so much.

That being said, the well-made videos will show that with thorough training, one can deploy a firearm and chamber a round very quickly - well within your 2 second rule.

In respect to "Israeli Carry", this from pistol-training.com » Blog Archive » The ?Israeli? Draw points out the con's of this practice well.

The "Israeli" Draw
16-Apr-08 – 23:11 by ToddG

The so-called "Israeli" Draw is a technique advocated by some for presenting a pistol from the holster. The gun is carried with an loaded magazine but no round in the chamber. As the gun is drawn from the holster, the shooter racks the slide to load the gun.

The question is not whether it's humanly possible to draw an unloaded gun and get off a shot. The question is whether for a given amount of time, effort, and money you'll be better doing it one way, or the other.

Racking the slide takes time. Anyone who disputes that is intellectually dishonest.
Racking the slide quickly takes two hands; drawing a loaded gun is no slower when I have to work with just my strong hand if a round is chambered already.
Racking the slide quickly and properly makes noise. There may be times when you want the gun in your hand but don't want to draw attention to yourself. So now you have to practice multiple things: rack as you draw, rack one-handed as you draw, draw then rack as you present the gun later, draw then rack one-handed as you present the gun later …
Racking the slide is just another opportunity to induce some kind of stoppage in your gun, especially under stress.

 

[smokey0118]

Smokey, Good post sir.

With a minimum amount of basic instruction I don't see a great deal of difference in the complexity between operating a revolver or a pistol. I believe the operating procedure breakdowns in your post bare this out.

It isn't until you run into some form of stoppage that things get a little more complicated. The best feature of a revolver IMO is that if it doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger just pull it again and you have a fresh round delivered automatically. Although some semi-auto pistols do have second strike capabilities you are still attempting to discharge the same round that failed the first time. Sometimes this works sometimes it doesn't. The odds of success are much better with a fresh round.

That said, semi-auto pistols have other advantages over a revolver. Higher round capacity. A slimmer profile better for CC. Quicker reload capability given preloaded spare magazines. Yes I know about speed loaders for revolvers but unless you practice diligently with them you would likely never reload quicker than is possible with a semi-auto and a loaded magazine.

With instruction and practice any disadvantages that the pistol may have are easily overcome. When practicing at the range have someone load a dummy round somewhere in each of your magazines so that you can practice clearing stoppages. Practice changing magazines and getting back on target quickly at the range.

Isn't it a good idea to familiarize yourself and practice with a potentially lethal object if you choose to own one. Did any of you just jump into a car and start driving the first time you got behind the wheel? You probably took a driving education course or at the very least were mentored by an experienced driver. Did you jump right onto the freeway or did you practice in vacant parking lots and back roads for a while?

If you choose to own a handgun, any hand gun, isn't it wise to invest at least as much time and effort learning how to properly use it as you invested in learning how to drive?

Thank you sir. I agree with all above information. I wouldn't strap on a sword and assume I'm good to go if I get in a swordfight, or mix up some tang and assume I'm good to land on the moon. If you choose to carry, you should also choose to be trained in defensive use of the firearm(and when it's to your advantage to NOT use it...it doesn't make much sense to be getting stabbed while you're trying to get your gun up and out of a holster when you could be defending yourself with your hands/knees/feet while or before drawing your firearm).