S&W 1 1/2 caliber

[first-model]

Is there any other way to get any information from the gun besides the request form to SWHF?

What else are you looking for?

The major S&W books (Neal and Jinks, McHenry and Roper, Supica and Nahas, etc.) tell much of the history of the Model 1 1/2. And in terms of any specific Model 1 1/2, the factory letter will give you the additional details of when the gun shipped from the factory, who it went to (99% of the time it's to the Storrs / Robinson sales agency in NYC), and possibly the gun's original configuration (barrel length, grips and finish).

Unfortunately, that's the end of the paper trail for most Smith & Wessons from this era, unless there's something else with the gun to give you a clue about where it ended up (engraving, an original sales receipt, etc.).

Mike

 

[rta72]

Mainly I meant that is there anyway how I could search for the info for myself? glowe gave me a estimate on shipping year, but it would be fun to search for the info also by myself. That factory letter would be awesome, but that is little bit steep at the moment (almost $90 with shipping to and from overseas), not saying that it's not worth the money, but need to delay getting it a while.

 

[first-model]

Mainly I meant that is there anyway how I could search for the info for myself? glowe gave me a estimate on shipping year, but it would be fun to search for the info also by myself. That factory letter would be awesome, but that is little bit steep at the moment (almost $90 with shipping to and from overseas), not saying that it's not worth the money, but need to delay getting it a while.

Not really, unfortunately. Many of us have built our own databases of known serial numbers and shipping dates, and by my estimates your gun was probably shipped late in December 1865 or early in January 1866. The problem, of course, is that guns didn't always ship in sequential order of serial number, so you're really at the mercy of the factory's shipping records to know for sure.

Safe money has your gun going to the Storrs / Robinson sales agency in New York, because that's where virtually every gun from this era went. Again, there's a very outside chance that yours was one of the few that didn't, but given that it's not a "fancy" gun (with engraving and such), the chances of it not having gone to Storrs / Robinson is pretty miniscule.

In terms of its original configuration: your gun probably has the 3 1/2" barrel, which was the standard length for a Model 1 1/2. The blued finish and walnut stocks are also very likely factory ... most of the time when the stocks don't match, it's because the distributor swapped them out for fancy stocks (mother of pearl, ivory, etc.). And if you remove your wood stocks, one of them should be stamped on the inside with your gun's serial number. If that matches, then you know that at least one of the grip panels is correct (and the other should match, in terms of wood and finish).

As I'm often reminded when I letter my garden-variety Model 1's, the only real nugget of information I'm going to get is the exact ship date. And candidly, at this point, I'm more interested in having that for my serial number database than I am because of some particular significance to that date.

Probably not the answer you wanted ...

Mike

 

[rta72]

No, that's great info, thank you!

I would also be interested in how the gun ended up in the frozen backcountry of Europe? [emoji16] There have been a lot of Nordic immigrants to U.S. so it is possible it came in someones suitcase. Only sure thing is that it didn't come onboard Titanic. [emoji57]

I don't know how many of model 1 1/2 were exported out of U.S. and did that retailer you mentioned also do exporting.

That factory letter will be interesting to get some day.

 

[first-model]

I would also be interested in how the gun ended up in the frozen backcountry of Europe? [emoji16] There have been a lot of Nordic immigrants to U.S. so it is possible it came in someones suitcase. Only sure thing is that it didn't come onboard Titanic. [emoji57]

I don't know how many of model 1 1/2 were exported out of U.S. and did that retailer you mentioned also do exporting.

I don't believe that foreign orders were all that unusual. And I believe that the sales agent (Storrs / Robinson) would have handled the foreign shipping and such.

It's worth noting that the "sales agent" back then was responsible for the distribution of manufactured goods. Arranging for the transportation of goods and the reciprocal movement of moneys was not nearly as easy as it is now, especially when goods were going overseas, or even across the country to then-backwoods places like California and Oregon. I suspect most manufacturing companies like Smith & Wesson were happy to outsource this; it freed them to concentrate on just making the guns.

Mike

 

[rta72]

Thank you Mike for the info!

Sorry to go into basics, but are modern solvents safe to use to clean the bore and cylinder chambers?

I got Hoppe's no. 9 and Bore Tech Carbon Remover. I think the latter should be as it is ammonia free and I don't even know if ammonia is harmful to old metals? Bore Tech is more user friendly, but Hoppes might be more effective as carbon remover might not even be most suited for the task.

Is brass/bronze brushes safe to use?

One question more.

How tight the lock up when cylinder is in battery should be? Rock solid? No play at all? On longitudinal axis it has no play, but on rotational axis a tiny bit of wiggle, but so has all my modern revolvers too, this has maybe tiny bit more but it's 160 years old.

Edit. Actually just tinkered with a bit and noticed that when you press the trigger keeping hammer cocked it becomes virtually rock solid, but no idea if it has anything to do with anything.

 

[first-model]

Sorry to go into basics, but are modern solvents safe to use to clean the bore and cylinder chambers?

I got Hoppe's no. 9 and Bore Tech Carbon Remover. I think the latter should be as it is ammonia free and I don't even know if ammonia is harmful to old metals? Bore Tech is more user friendly, but Hoppes might be more effective as carbon remover might not even be most suited for the task.

Is brass/bronze brushes safe to use?

One question more.

How tight the lock up when cylinder is in battery should be? Rock solid? No play at all? On longitudinal axis it has no play, but on rotational axis a tiny bit of wiggle, but so has all my modern revolvers too, this has maybe tiny bit more but it's 160 years old.

Edit. Actually just tinkered with a bit and noticed that when you press the trigger keeping hammer cocked it becomes virtually rock solid, but no idea if it has anything to do with anything.

In my experience it's pretty normal for the lockup to tighten when the trigger is pulled. My preference is for there to be absolutely no wiggle at all, but I'm also not a gunsmith so I'd defer to others on this.

I use Hoppe's Number 9 on my antique guns when I clean them. I try to be very light in my cleanings of my antique guns, but I do use a standard bronze bore brush.

The residue from the old blackpowder ammo was quite corrosive, so it's not unusual to see a lot of pitting in the bores of these old guns.

Mike

 

[rta72]

The residue from the old blackpowder ammo was quite corrosive, so it's not unusual to see a lot of pitting in the bores of these old guns.

Mike

I suppose that small amount of pitting inside the bore doesn't really make a difference?

 

[rta72]

Now to the use of dreaded smokeless powder loads in these revolvers. I have gone through probably 500 to 1000 rounds of Navy Arms 32 Long and Short ammo back when it was available without issue. Plus I have shot every one of the guns pictured below. Have about 400 rounds left, plus a goal of shooting it ALL up before I get too old to see the sights. In case people think this is foolhardy, I have chronographed both original black powder loads and Navy Arms rounds to find that, while original 32 RF Long ran about 650 fps and Shorts were about 550 fps. Navy Arms ammo ran at 532 fps for Long and 425 fps for Shorts. That is about a 20% reduction in speed, which should equate to pretty mild pressures for the Navy Arms loads.

Being curious that was that Navy Arms 32 RF smokeless ammo made to be used in these old blackpowder guns? Or was there some gun chambered for 32 RF in the post blackpowder era?

 

[first-model]

I suppose that small amount of pitting inside the bore doesn't really make a difference?

It affects the value to a collector. That said, it's pretty hard to find one of these antiques with a perfect bore, and if you do the rest of the gun is probably also in mint condition ...

Mike

 

[glowe]

Being curious that was that Navy Arms 32 RF smokeless ammo made to be used in these old blackpowder guns? Or was there some gun chambered for 32 RF in the post blackpowder era?

Doubt that there were more than a handful of rifles made in this caliber after the turn of the Twentieth Century. Yes they were loaded with smokeless designed to be shot in Smith & Wesson, Marlin, Colt, H&R, Allen, F&W, and many other handguns. They were also used in several single shot rifles made by Remington, Marlin, Ballard, Maynard, Winchester, Stevens, etc. There were also several other 32 Rimfire cartridges made. The Chicago Palm Pistol used a 32 Extra Short, while the 32 Long Rifle and 32 Extra Longs were used in various Nineteenth Century Rifles.

As far as I can recall, Navy Arms made no mention of what brand or models, plus identified no era the ammo was designed for. The box states: These powerful cartridges are precision built for maximum effectiveness and dependability. The box also states These cartridges are specifically adapted for all arms chambered for 32 cartridges. Lastly, the warning states Use only arms in good condition designed for this cartridge.

 

[rta72]

Doubt that there were more than a handful of rifles made in this caliber after the turn of the Twentieth Century. Yes they were loaded with smokeless designed to be shot in Smith & Wesson, Marlin, Colt, H&R, Allen, F&W, and many other handguns. They were also used in several single shot rifles made by Remington, Marlin, Ballard, Maynard, Winchester, Stevens, etc. There were also several other 32 Rimfire cartridges made. The Chicago Palm Pistol used a 32 Extra Short, while the 32 Long Rifle and 32 Extra Longs were used in various Nineteenth Century Rifles.

As far as I can recall, Navy Arms made no mention of what brand or models, plus identified no era the ammo was designed for. The box states: These powerful cartridges are precision built for maximum effectiveness and dependability. The box also states These cartridges are specifically adapted for all arms chambered for 32 cartridges. Lastly, the warning states Use only arms in good condition designed for this cartridge.

As you mentioned before, Wikipedia is often incorrect. Still it is often the most frequent place to first look for info as it comes usually on top of Google search list.

It says that semi-smokeless powder was used at some point in .32 RF history. What is semi-smokeless?

.32 rimfire - Wikipedia

"During its lifetime, the .32 rimfire was loaded with black powder, followed by semi-smokeless and smokeless powder loadings."

Edit: What is the best way to open the side plate? Don't want to damage the gun by prying it open, if there is a better way to open it.

 

[glowe]

Semi-smokeless powders were blackpowder with guncotton. Examples of this powder were marketed in the USA as Kings Semi-Smokeless and Duponts Lesmok. Guncotton is nitrated wood cellulose fiber. The percentages of each are given as anywhere from 5% to 90% black powder, but I have never found a reliable source to pin down the exact components.

You need to remove the stocks and the sideplate screw. Holding the frame in one hand, use a rubber hammer and keep tapping the upper section of the butt-frame and the sideplate will pop off.

 

[rta72]

Thank you again. Went ahead before reading your message and cocked the hammer and used a wooden "cleaning" rod to the inside of the plate which is visible when cocking the hammer and hit the rpd with rubber hammer. Popped easily right of the frame. I will try your method next.

I've been reading relatively lot of firearms history but don't remember about semi-smokeless powder. Good to get more knowledge about the subject!

Do you know if anyone makes vintage reproduction ammo boxes for .32 RF? Similar like these .44 cab and ball boxes.

 

[rta72]

I apologize in advance because this will be a stooopid question. [emoji16]

If I got some brownish substance on the gun and I haven't been to the can with it, is it always rust? [emoji16][emoji16]

The surface looks good when looked in warm light, but when I point a strong white light flashlight on it there is rust looking coating on it at some places. The reason I ask is is that I've tryed to wipe it off with Hoppe's no. 9, gun oil, robla solo (ammonia based mil spec stuff) and even tryed 0000 steel wool on it and it doesn't go away. The surface doesn't look to be too badly pitted for the naked eye, so I suppose those measures should have been enough to remove it?

I don't mind as long I can contain it and I think that is part of the patina that makes old guns look good.

 

[KRL]

About reloading .32 rimfire

Hi, I have .32 rimfire RRB that I started down the reoad reloading for. This link, reloadable .32 rimfire brass is a long thread but very useful. Most of these guys are modifying .32 Colt cases. I have tried the cases sold by Dixie. they make the old gun shoot but aren't super convenient. Those cases recommend .32 balls, the original manufacturer of the cases, in Belgium, will sell heel based bullets. However, there are sources in the US for heel based bullets or molds.

I would caution that the tip-up is not real strong. If the revolver has much play I would recommend not shooting it. A lot of cheap guns were made for the rimfire cartridge so if in doubt, don't shoot it.

I love the collection of S&W's that Glowe showed off!

Good luck.
Keith

 

[H Richard]

I did acquire a box of Navy 32 RF a few years ago, but have not yet used any in any of my anitque's. The top 3 are 32 RF, an #1 1/2 1st Issue in 4" and in 3". and a #1 1/2 2nd Issue. The two lower ones are #1 1/2 CF and I have shot both of them.