S & W D. A. 45

[MacChiroCtr]

Hello, all...

We are going through our parents' home, as my father (a WWII veteran) died years ago, and my Mom was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's.

Anyway -- going through a drawer we found a S&W D.A.45, patented Sept. 14, 1909, "United States Property", US Army Model 1917, with a clearly visible SN.

I have no intention of selling it, as it is obviously a family heirloom... and I assume it belonged to my Dad. However, while he frequently talked about his 1911 sidearm which he carried in Europe, and made no secret of... the S&W is a surprise, as he never mentioned it and we never knew about it until now. My questions are, would this have been issued to a US Army officer in 1944, or is it possible that it came from an earlier era? It seems to be in excellent condition, so would it be safe to shoot? I assume it eats .45 ACP.

And if there's any other information you may have, it would be sincerely appreciated. Thanks!

 

[murphydog]

Welcome (if you haven't seen this yet)! As marked, the model 1917 was produced and issued as a first-line sidearm during WW I; about 170,000 were made between 1917-'19 for the military. After that war, many were put into storage and were re-issued during WW II; my recollection is mostly to MP units, but I also saw photos of some being used by front line soldiers. So, it is possible it was used by your father during the war. A perfect reason to never sell it .

If it is mechanically sound, it does use .45 ACP. Spring steel clips holding 3-6 rounds aid in extraction of the fired cases and are readily available, called "half-moon" or "moon" clips. Standard pressure FMJ seems to work best in them, I think.

We like photos, by the way . Hope this is helpful.

 

[Jack Flash]

Since he never mentioned it, I would believe that he acquired it some time after his service in WWII. They had been sold as surplus starting right after WWI. IIRC you could get them through the Department of Civilian Marksmanship through the early '60s.

Or a friend may have had it for sale for a very reasonable price, or a gun show, or ...

They used to sell for a song (I want to say about $20 in the '50s and '60s but I may be wrong). Now days, good luck finding one for less than $1,000. And if it is in superior condition, the price can skyrocket.

 

[MacChiroCtr]

Here's an image of her:

Thanks, murphydog and Jack. As far as I know, he was not an MP. He NEVER talked about it... but from what we've been able to put together, he went overseas about 6 weeks post D-day, and did time in Iran and Belgium. Finally got back to the US in 1946.

 

[spad124]

Welcome to the forum! If you do a search for "M1917" you will find many threads about your Dad's revolver. Also there is a "show us your 1917s" pics thread where you can see stock M1917s as well as ones that have been modified over the years by changing barrel lengths, grips, and finishes. There are several threads that describe the production history, including a few changes to inspection marks and the hammer, and from those you can probably find out what month and year it was made.

I'm glad you consider your 1917 to be an heirloom. While your 1917 might not be the 1911 your dad carried in WWII, I'll hazard a guess that when he wanted a sidearm after he returned he looked for a sidearm that used a cartridge he was familiar with - the .45acp. And because of his military experience he would think that an ex-army sidearm would be a plus. I also suspect he saw one or two M1917s during his time in service and was familiar with them. While your M1917 might not be the 1911 he carried, it is the sidearm he chose probably because it has ties to his service to our country and it appears he was proud of that service. I'd treasure it if I were you.

I have a shooter grade M1917 and yes, it eats .45 acp hardball all day long, thank you. It's just rugged, reliable, and more handy than later N frames with heavier barrels.

 

[spad124]

Here's an image of her:

Thanks, murphydog and Jack. As far as I know, he was not an MP. He NEVER talked about it... but from what we've been able to put together, he went overseas about 6 weeks post D-day, and did time in Iran and Belgium. Finally got back to the US in 1946.

Many from his generation never talked about what they experienced. I had three uncles in Europe during WWII. They mentioned a little of what they saw, but most of their experience was lost. They just wanted to get on with life when they returned.

I believe officers were allowed to our purchase sidearms when they left the service. A friend's father purchased the sidearm he carried in his Sherman across France. My friend now has it

 

[MacChiroCtr]

Thanks, spad. I was lucky enough to be involved with the Triad Flights of Honor which over a two year period, has sent 1300+ WWII veterans from central NC to DC to see their Memorial. It's by far the finest program I have ever, or will ever, be involved with. And these guys (and a few Army and Marine girls, too!) are... well, words can't describe them. Just the best. Ever.

 

[Iggy]

That's a fine lookin' old warrior.. Shoot it, Clean it, Oil it, and repeat.
If we're real lucky your next generation can do the same thing with it.

 

[spad124]

Thanks, spad. I was lucky enough to be involved with the Triad Flights of Honor which over a two year period, has sent 1300+ WWII veterans from central NC to DC to see their Memorial. It's by far the finest program I have ever, or will ever, be involved with. And these guys (and a few Army and Marine girls, too!) are... well, words can't describe them. Just the best. Ever.

I agree. Thanks for giving your time and effort to honor those WWII vets. I know they appreciate what you do for them

I had two uncles who served in Italy and one uncle who walked across France and into Germany . Unfortunately they all passed away before the memorial was built.

And, I should tell you that your M1917 looks very nice! A fine old warrior!

 

[Alk8944]

MacChiroCtr,

Very nice unmolested 1917. All I can really add is that this model was never "First Line". From the beginning the models, yes, plural, 1917 were "Substitute Standard". The standard WW I period US sidearm was the Model 1911 Colt (regardless of manufacturer). There was insufficient manufacturing capacity to provide enough 1911s for all services, so the Gov't. contracted with both Colt and Smith & Wesson to supply revolvers chambered for the .45 A.C.P. to fill the need.

To solve the extraction problems of using a rimless cartridge in a firearm type which required a rimmed cartridge a S&W engineer designed what is known as the "Half-moon clip".

Colt selected it's New Service model. The only basic modification was to shorten the back of the cylinder to allow the use of the S&W designed clip. Because the charge holes did not have a head-spacing shoulder in early guns the S&W clip was needed for the gun to work.

S&W based their version on the existing .455 Mk II which they had been making for the British & Canadians. Like the Colt the back of the cylinder was shortened for clearance for the clip, but they chambered the guns correctly so the clip only was an aid to extraction.

Some 1917s were surplused between the wars, but many remained in inventory. During early WW II much of the existing inventory was refurbished, including a Parkerized finish. These were issued to troops on the same "Substitute Standard" basis as they had been during WW I.

Your Dad could have bought one of the surplused guns, one from a WW I Vet. who had "Liberated" it, or any of several other explanations. Possibly he Liberated one he came across during his WW II service period. Who knows? Too bad you didn't know about it while he was still around to ask. Unfortunately most of us can say the same about any number of things we would now like to have answers about which we didn't think to ask when we still could!

 

[Muley Gil]

"I believe officers were allowed to our purchase sidearms when they left the service."

A friend of mine has the Colt 1911 that his grandfather, an Army officer in WW I, bought at the end of the hostilities in 1918.

 

[Pisgah]

"I believe officers were allowed to our purchase sidearms when they left the service."

A friend of mine has the Colt 1911 that his grandfather, an Army officer in WW I, bought at the end of the hostilities in 1918.

My granddad was in the Army Medical Corps in WW1. This is his issue 1917, and the receipt from when he bought it upon mustering out July 3, 1919, Camp Dodge, Iowa. Also have the original holster.

 

[Tcoburn]

Just picked one up Thursday, Brazilian marked, and they did come with checkered stocks if I remember right. Mine certainly is not in great condition but brought it home checked it out, fired 6 rounds from 25 yards everything hit within a 5 in circle good shooter. Actually very pleased with its performance.

Be Well
Ted