S&W made a believer out of me, about thier lack ofquality control!!!

[GetSmith]

In the past 6 months I've bought a 686+, two M&P .40, M&P 22, and have a Shield on order. I've read the bashing about the lack of quality control coming out of the S&W factory within recent years and have read the opinions to only buy used, older model S&W revolvers. I didn't believe it myself until tonight.

I was at the range with my brother tonight. He was shooting his PC 629 and a model 60. Both guns malfunctioned. Both of these revolvers were bought new within the past year and have less than 100 rounds through them.

The model 60 has an intermittent hammer lock issue. Only when loaded when you pull the hammer back it will get stuck before it locks. I had to use both thumbs to lock the hammer. When pulling the trigger in double action it must be a 30 lb trigger pull. I could not pull the trigger with my index finger, again I had to use two fingers to pull the trigger. On a few occasions with many pulls a few rounds did fire but more than 90% of the time I would have considered it a failure in a self defense situation.

The pricey PC 629 had 90% light primer strike rate. We used 2 different ammo types, Magtech and Hornady. I one occasion he loaded it and ran a rapid fire double action drill, only 1 of 6 rounds fired. All were light primer strikes. This was with two seperate boxes of different ammo. The range closed up before we had a chance to try the ammo in another gun. Our next step was going to be renting a 44 mag and trying the ammo in the rental gun. We will follow up on that next week but it looks like the gun is giving light primer strikes.

I don't know what to say. We are both heavily invested in S&W from a financial and self defense aspect. Our confidence has been shot. I realize any mechanical device can fail but his only 2 revolvers at over $2000 have failed. Sure he can send them to S&W and only be left with his Berreta 9mm. Not good. IF I buy another revolver I think I'll be in the market for an older model. Back when S&W did it right. What say you.

 

[BCDWYO]

Sorry to hear your experiences. Its hard to judge how common these occurences really are. Certainly we hear about a fair number on internet forums, but the overall prevalence?? Who knows. I know there have always been lemons but the perception is certainly that there are more now days that fall into that category than there used to be. I've had several (3-4) newer S&W revolvers and had good luck with them...but the majority of my collection is the older stuff and for a variety of reasons, that is mainly what I will stick to.

 

[GetSmith]

I hear you, I'm sure 99.9% of what S&W puts out is quality. That maters not if your in the small percentage with defects though. We're talking about life and death here. I just couldn't believe BOTH his revolvers failed.

I probably have about 500 trouble free rounds through my 686+ 4 inch. It's not an EDC so it doesnt usually make it to the range with me. Now I feel compeled to run another 500 rounds through it for "quality controll".

I read about the MIM parts and internal locks and blew it off. I just don't think I'll be able to buy another new S&W. It a shame, I was so happy and loyal to the brand.

 

[STCM(SW)]

This is nothing new. I had a M24 in the '80's that spit lead/copper & was sent back to S&W.
Sometimes you luck out the wrong way. My M21-4 from 2007 has no problems.
Then some have no problems with a Charter Arms revolver(.44 Bulldog) but I'll never buy another one......

 

[GetSmith]

I see your point. All mechanical devices can fail. IMO my brother should have put 1000 rounds through each of these revolvers by now. It would have been much better to know of these problems when he first purchased them. I think the model 60 only has about 50 rounds through it. He needs to buy a few cases of ammo and "break" these guns in once they are repaired.

 

[jaymoore]

If the model 60 was working prior to this range trip, it may just be that there's debris under the extractor. In which case there's too much oil in that area or the ammo used left unburnt powder, or both.

The 629 probably has the mainspring screw backed out far enough to cause misfires. Make sure it's tight. Folk often fiddle with that screw to improve double action trigger pull, but it's a practice that often creates this exact drama.

 

[Fishinfool]

Jaymoore is probably right on RE the strain screw.

As far as the #60 goes, was it factory or reloads? Could be debris under the star, could be high primers dragging, or over thick rims. My 1st year 586 has been reliable thru many thousands of rounds, but recently had problems with a box of Remington factory loads, similar to yours. Sure enough, upon visual inspection, the rims on about half the cartridges were way thicker then normal, causing them to "drag", virtually tying up the action. Did your #60 cycle normally when unloaded?

Most handgun malfunctions I have seen over the years can be traced back to bad ammo, or shooter error.

How have your other Smiths worked for you?

Larry

 

[slabside2]

We keep buying they keep selling.......over priced gun that should have a return lable packed in the box when they leave the factory. It's sad.k

 

[Stainz]

Wow... tough crowd. Indict a company with no more evidence than was presented here? Wow. Please get out of any jury duty calls. We have no history of the two revolvers. It could be a strain screw on the 629 and a loosened or bent ejector rod on the 60. More info would be 'a good thing' here.

Stainz

 

[nipster]

Wow... tough crowd. Indict a company with no more evidence than was presented here? Wow.

I think there is a pretty big pattern of evidence posted here with in the last few years. It's not like this was an isolated incident.

 

[TheMystro]

It sucks but being a older guy and remember alot of shooting years before the internet.....The quality isn't any different than years before. There just is now a Internet forum that connects the world to hear about the issues. I had seen trouble with COLT Pythons and a M29, M27 in my small neck of the woods years ago. Satistacly that would have been a high percentage considering how many of these guns were around. Mechanical items can always fail and I would bet even less are failing now considering the higher tolerances in manufacturing. My head space of my newer 629 is alot tighter than any of my 1970's/1980's revolvers.
S&W will take care of both items for free in a very short amount of time. I sent in a 686 back in the late 1980's for repair. It took 3 weeks go me to get my gun back. I bet now days its under 10 days.
Just trying to put this into proper perspective.

 

[DonD]

Most handgun malfunctions I have seen over the years can be traced back to bad ammo, or shooter error. Larry

I think that's right on the money. Remember the fuss on the internet, inexperienced shooters screaming at S&W over .500 Mag malfunctions/doubling? All shooter error but those clowns shooting guns they were inept with may have given S&W an undeserved black eye in the view of many. Doubt this sort of thing is an isolated incident.

Speaking of small sample sizes, my built like a tank for its size, Ruger SP101 is completely reliable (no surprise there) with factory ammo or my JHP handloads. My light, lubricated-lead plinking loads are much dirtier and can foul the gun.

As Larry said, that falls into the category of "bad ammo" and I'm sure a lot blame the gun, not the ammo or their poor cleaning of the firearm. Don

 

[ladder13]

New Smith's bad, old Smith's perfect.

Sign up boys.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/280945-petition-close-smith-wesson-down.html

 

[DDDWho]

The canted barrel issue says to me S&W does not care about quality control. My 26 year old 686 has a slightly canted barrel. A new 686 I looked at within the last few months at Bass Pro also had a canted barrel. They had to be aware of canted barrels a 1/4 century ago but they still let them out of the factory.

 

[Joewisc]

Even a Lexus will fail now and then. Nothing is perfect. The thing is whether a company stands behind its product and makes good on its guarantees. Smith & Wesson is among those that does and most repairs are done for free or at a minimal charge.

As a general observation, craftsmanship in many fields has suffered due to automation and modernization. In the old days, more care was taken to manufacture goods because it was largely done by hand with pride. Machines may be more cost-efficient and in the rush to get the product out the door quality control suffers. That's one reason why Beretta in particular is still seen as the quintessential manufacturer of guns. Beretta owns the advantage of unbroken continuity and still employs many highly skilled artisans, has always been privately owned and has 500+ years of tradition to uphold. Beretta, founded in 1526, is still family run. Smith & Wesson, a publicly traded company with stockholders constantly looking over its shoulder, was founded in 1852 and has had several owners since, the latest transaction occurring in 2001, when it was acquired by Saf-T-Hammer Corp. for the rock-bottom price of $15 million from Tomkins PLC, which originally paid $112 million for S&W assets.

Bear in mind, S&W was the only arms maker that had signed a pact with the Clinton Administration in 2000 agreeing to adopt safety and design standards (locks on every gun, for example), as well as limits on the sale and distribution of their products. This resulted in widespread boycotts by the gun community, a 40% drop in sales and the shutdown of two plants.
All of this was bound to impact the company negatively.

Despite these setbacks, S&W has emerged as one of the premier manufacturers of firearms, in my opinion, and I would not let your experience dampen enthusiasm for their many fine products and excellent customer service.

 

[GetSmith]

Thanks for the tips guys. The extractor was clean on the model 60. I saw him check it again durring the trip. He has made no alterations to either gun including the mainspring screw on the 629. The roughly 50 rounds through each gun have been factory ammo.

He hates the thought of having to send these guns out for repair. He might let a trusted local smith take a look first in the hopes that it's a quick fix.

I'll let you all know what was causing the problems with both guns.

 

[Joewisc]

I've got hundreds of rounds through my Smith 617 and never a glitch. Best .22 revolver ever.

 

[lhump1961]

Lots and lots of new members here...that's a good thing as I have only been here a short time myself...but I think I notice a pattern. The longer term members may post with a problem but only asking advice or help with the next step. Shorter term members tend to post with a problem not asking advice or seeking resolution...just criticizing and making broad, sweeping, negative statements.

This forum has a reputation for being a great source of information about our favorite firearms conducted in a civil and helpful manner. Maybe the Great Gorilla can create a category just for b******* sessions.

If all my problems could be resolved as easily as any problem I may have with my Smith's...FAST AND FREE!...then life would be very good indeed.

One example from the range yesterday. A guy has a gal on a lane obviously teaching her to shoot for the first time. They have a brand new Bodyguard out of the box so he is teaching her with a gun he most likely has no experience with. Next thing I see is her with a slide bite and him blaming the gun! I suppose we'll see that thread soon.

Forgive my rant...I will make no more comments in this regard and try very hard to live up to the reputation of this great forum.

 

[BigBill]

Other than S&W's I purchased three brand new 1911's that malfunctioned. I was about to give up owning a functioning 1911 when i spotted a used chinese norinco 1911a1. This forged from our scrap railroad track 1911 clone cycles and functions awesome. It showed me what all the 1911/auto hype is about.

Ok fast forward 10 or 15 years now. I found out any auto pistol needs to be chambered from the mag only. If we load 1rd and close the slide we detune the extractor. I kept one non functioning SA 1911 (1990's) and let it sit in the safe for all these many years figuring someday i'll fix it. I purchased all the extractor tuning tools from brownells and had it cycling in 5 minutes. I had other guns to shoot so letting it sit in the safe for all these many years was ok i forgot i had it. I now load/chamber all my auto pistols from the mag's. My point is i blamed the gun when it was my fault with one of them anyway.

I figured if 1911's are that finiky i better know how to repair them. This is when i started buying all the dvd/vhs video's to learn how to check and repair them if need be. I ended up building my norinco too.

After owning many ruger revolvers and colt/ SA / AO 1911's i'm new to S&W revolvers and i have to say quality wise there as good as any other revolver that i own. I have no clue why I waited since the 70's to purchase a S&W firearm.

My curse was so bad i had bad new cars one after the other that needed there engines pulled. The 1911's were my curse too. But my new S&W's are spot on.

 

[AveragEd]

I'm a retired franchised auto dealership service manager. Every now and then, I would hear one of my technicians bad-mouthing our products because all those guys see are the ones with problems. That's when I would walk him outside where we could watch the traffic passing by on the busy road in front of the store. After a few minutes, I would ask him if he noticed all those cars and trucks of the brands we sold and serviced that drove on past the dealership without coming in for repairs.

That usually "turned that frown upside-down" and improved his morale. It is easy to assume the worst when that's all you see.

Having said that, I will admit to preferring to buy nice lock-free Smith & Wessons with square butts, grooved grip frames, forged parts, real wood stocks and the other qualities no longer available.

Ed