S&W Model 1917 Stamped "Not English Made"

[2152hq]

I got the impression from a post above that someone thinks that P-14 .303 rifles were made in Britain. I believe that they contracted for all to be made in the US for them. ....

I am truly baffled by how few American gun enthusiasts seem not to know this basic stuff that I learned in my teens. Maybe I just read more about British matters because of the glamor/glamour of the days of Empire and that being my ancestry. ?? I hope this interests those here who are so often puzzled by such matters.

No I am not under the impression that the P14 was made in England.
If my writing was confusing I appologize. But I thought I was clear.

I mearly made the P14 an example of a Brit used Military firearm that was not Brit made.

"...X-military firearms surplused by the English gov't (Sold from Service) would be proofed before allowing them to be sold and traded on the commercial market. If one of these were not an English mfg'r (P14 Enfield for example), it would receive that marking along with proofing if it was going out onto the civilian market."

FWIW, Navy Arms sold several thousand surplused Inglis High Powers in the early 90's, both the fixed sighted version and some with the tangent rear sight.

I learned some basic stuff in my teens too!,,but I didn't read a whole lot...:>)
Hope I haven't left anyone baffled or puzzled,,

 

[Oyeboteb]

With the serial number on that 1917, it was built for WWI. If it is stamped "United States Property" under the barrel, it was made for our troops. It may have been left in the UK after the war and made its way back over here after WWII. The flaming bomb stamp means it was a middle issue revolver made from SN 42000 to April 1918.

Indeed, and thus, the Revolver bears no discernable clues as to it's Maker or Origin, or, after six generations or so of the English Government bureaucracy having been in charge of 'public education', by 1955, they had reduced practical literacy in their population, to where crudely stamping "NOT ENGLISH MAKE" was found to be necessary, in order to inform anyone examining the S & W m1917, that it was not made in England.

That, and, how they not only never issued or handed out 95 percent of all the Arms sent to them from the US for both 'world wars', whether from private Organizations, and/or, with 'Lend Lease' in the 2nd WW, but, they destroyed them instead.

I personally regret that the US ever 'helped' them in anything.

I would think the War of 1812 ( let alone the prior fracus ) ought to have made matters clear enough, even for an average dolt to have gotten a good 'feel' for the matter.

Those were good enough for me to have gotten a pretty good feel for the matter.

Lol...

But anyway...oh well, whatchagunnado...

 

[Militwacht]

As I understand it; All Lend Lease firearms were proofed by the British prior to being issued. I have a Victory model stamped US Property that has stamps on each chamber as well as the Definitive Nitro Proof marks. It also has "Not English Make" stamped on the frame where the barrel is pinned.

 

[Muley Gil]

As I understand it; All Lend Lease firearms were proofed by the British prior to being issued. I have a Victory model stamped US Property that has stamps on each chamber as well as the Definitive Nitro Proof marks. It also has "Not English Make" stamped on the frame where the barrel is pinned.

See post # 17.

When the Lend-Lease guns were sent to England, they had so few weapons that everything was issued as soon as it could. No time to fool with proofing.

 

[Göring's S&W]

I am truly baffled by how few American gun enthusiasts seem not to know this basic stuff that I learned in my teens. Maybe I just read more about British matters because of the glamor/glamour of the days of Empire and that being my ancestry. ?? I hope this interests those here who are so often puzzled by such matters.

I think you know it well simply because you have a personal interest in it, like myself with my German ancestry and my German history interest. For me personally, British history was never near as interesting as other countrys' histories. They couldn't beat Germany without the US in WWI, and in WWII we saved England from extinction. They carried bolt action rifles in WWII when everyone else had semi rifles. The Germans actually had the predecessor to the AK 47 by 1944 in mass production, the MP44/STG44. They had webleys when everyone else, even the crude Japanese, had predominantly semi pistols. If you look at England in WWII, they were like the little kid on the playground who had to get their big brother to take care of the playground bully for them. Lord knows, they could have never done it by themselves despite being considered a world power at the time. I feel the same way about the Soviet Union. If Hitler didn't meddle with the war strategy and let his Generals handle it, there would have never been a cold war, that's for sure. Then if you go back further with English history, old Cornwallis couldn't handle a small band of American rebels led by Washington, and in 1812 they wanted to feel our boots on their arse again, because they couldn't learn their lesson the first time around. Now we get to hear on the news and everywhere else about Kate and Prince William, and their socialist government. Over there you have to have a special license to own model guns and the word "gun" is probably a swear word. Old Piers Morgan wants to argue for gun control, when the crime rates in England are mostly higher than the US except for murder. He forgets to mention that when he speaks against guns. England seems to have become more and more like the governments they fought to over throw from years past.

"Great" Britain? Not so great in my eyes.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Hi Jim,


You are starting to get a feel for the matter.

Grab-a-Root-an'-dig!

 

[Göring's S&W]

You are starting to get a feel for the matter.

Grab-a-Root-an'-dig!

As in dig myself a little deeper? You know the old saying, opinions are like S&Ws...

 

[squidsix]

See, I thought it was "Not English Mad" because S&W, being American, is capable of being angry, but not mad. Only Englishmen and dogs can get mad.

 

[AlanDavid]

Dedburd.

If your revolver has the remnant of red paint on the barrel, I strongly suspect it is one of the 20,000 .45 revolvers that were included in the 37 million dollar sale of artillery, ammunition and small arms, which the British government bought off the US Steel Company, the US government having sold the same day this equipment to the US Steel Co. This was to get around the US Neutrality Act which was in force at the time. This sale also included 500,000 Model 1917 rifles and 80,000 odd assorted machine guns as well as 500 .38 S&W revolves and 900 odd 75mm guns, etc.

My reaserch at the UK National Archives and American archives shows that, the contract was amended about 4 times and the total dollar value ended up being about $43 million, the final number of M1917 revolvers shipped was actually 20,100.

This was in July 1940 so well before Lend Lease, the guns were paid for by the British.

The band of red paint was to help avoid confusion and was to highlight that the weapon was not of standard (British) caliber. This was also applied to the M1917 rifles and many of the machine guns. Ironically, the 2,500 odd Colt Government Models in 38 Super that Britain purchased in 1940/41 had red paint applied to the top of the slide, where as the .45acp Colt Government Models that Britain purchased in 1940/41 did not.

Although your revolver has British commercial proofs, looks like London, bit hard to read; it does not have British ordnance proof or inspection markings. This does not surprise me as I have never seen an M1917 revolver that does, in 40 years of looking.The same applies to to the M1917 rifles none of them ever received British ordnance markings. I do have a Savage made 30/06 aircraft Lewis gun in my collection that does have the red paint band and it does bear an Enfield inspection stamp along with a broad arrow, this gun was part of the July 1940 shipment.

I will be covering these revolvers in a book I am slowly putting together on 'British Military Secondary Issue Small Arms 1920-1980'. Is there any chance you could post some more photos of the revolver including any paint remnant if possible? If suitable I would like to include the pictures in my book, if that's OK with you. We can discuss by PM.

The Not British Make marking was used from 1925 to 1955 so it must have been released by the British government during that time.

Pictures of these pistols in use by the British military are very few and far between, I only have one. I have established that 10,000 of these were sent to the 'Middle East' ,which at that time meant Egypt.

I hope the above is of interest to you.

Regards


AlanD
Sydney
Australia

 

[Tom Doniphon]

I have a S&W Model 1917 revolver that is British proof marked like dedburd's. It has been reblued, but I don't know when, where or by whom. It also has a crown over A M mark on the left sideplate which I have been told means the British Air Ministry. It tpo is probably one of the guns sold to the British prior to Lend-Lease as described by AlanD.

 

[AlanDavid]

AM Marked 1917

I have a S&W Model 1917 revolver that is British proof marked like dedburd's. It has been reblued, but I don't know when, where or by whom. It also has a crown over A M mark on the left sideplate which I have been told means the British Air Ministry. It too is probably one of the guns sold to the British prior to Lend-Lease as described by AlanD.

The crown with AM under it is indeed, "Air Ministry". I have never seen this marking on ANY American revolver.

Is there any chance of posting pictures pictures of this revolver, also the serial number?

Regards
AlanD
Sydney