-
Forum Update: We've upgraded the software to improve security, performance, and the overall experience.
👉 Read why we made the change | Support the Forum
S&W model 25-15 max loads
- Thread starter dbress
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
lamarw
SWCA Member
What are your requirements? I mean by that, what is the threat or necessity for a hot load. I would recommend a good reloading manual like Lyman or Lee. They provide the recipes along with the velocity and pressure for your reloads. Look at the recommended max factory pressure for your handgun.
I have a Model 25 Mountain Gun in .45 Colt. The biggest treat in my area would be a wild hog or maybe a very random black bear. I do not need anything really hot and load accordingly. No need to put additional stress on a nice revolver if not necessary. You can load up to surpass a .44 Magnum if you are in big bear country.
I have a Model 25 Mountain Gun in .45 Colt. The biggest treat in my area would be a wild hog or maybe a very random black bear. I do not need anything really hot and load accordingly. No need to put additional stress on a nice revolver if not necessary. You can load up to surpass a .44 Magnum if you are in big bear country.
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,660
- Reaction score
- 21,273
Welcome! A reloading manual would be an excellent idea for an answer, with noting there will usually be a section for regular and heavy (Ruger/.454/.460 chambered) guns. No heavy loads in your model 25. Hope this is helpful.
Check out this article by John Linebaugh
Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5
I load my 45 colts above the usual pressure for the cartridge, but not to Ruger recommended loads or even the top loads John recommends. I dont feel any need. I highly doubt a bear would know the difference between a 300 gr slug at 1000ft fps over one at 1100fps. Whole lot of other things can effect the outcome more than 100fps.
I don't even own a mold that big. I figure if some 260 gr bullets going 1000 fps doesn't do what I need, I needed a rifle. I do have a 500 mag. and think it is one heck of a handgun, but, it is so heavy and bulky and the recoil is such that the number of quick shots on target would suffer.
To me a 45 colt shooting 260 gr at 1000fps is a lot of gun in a reasonable package.
Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5
I load my 45 colts above the usual pressure for the cartridge, but not to Ruger recommended loads or even the top loads John recommends. I dont feel any need. I highly doubt a bear would know the difference between a 300 gr slug at 1000ft fps over one at 1100fps. Whole lot of other things can effect the outcome more than 100fps.
I don't even own a mold that big. I figure if some 260 gr bullets going 1000 fps doesn't do what I need, I needed a rifle. I do have a 500 mag. and think it is one heck of a handgun, but, it is so heavy and bulky and the recoil is such that the number of quick shots on target would suffer.
To me a 45 colt shooting 260 gr at 1000fps is a lot of gun in a reasonable package.
The thickness of the cylinder at the cylinder notch (~.026") is it's the weakest point, not the frame.
Handloader #275 & #283 are a few later issues that have 45 Colt +P loads, up to 23K PSI. 300gr bullets don't make 1100fps but 280gr do. (No HS-6 data in them.)
.
Handloader #275 & #283 are a few later issues that have 45 Colt +P loads, up to 23K PSI. 300gr bullets don't make 1100fps but 280gr do. (No HS-6 data in them.)
.
Last edited:
Handloader #246 had HS-6 with a 270gr cast SWC. CCI-300 primers.
12.0gr = 973fps
13.5gr = 1101fps from a 5-1/2" bbl. & not over 20K PSI.
.
12.0gr = 973fps
13.5gr = 1101fps from a 5-1/2" bbl. & not over 20K PSI.
.
Last edited:
BruceM
Member
That's because bullet weights and powder charge weights are measured in grains and not grams. Yep, I know.
As mentioned previously, the critical point is the cylinder notches and not the frame. The reason Ruger revolvers are suggested for heavy .45 Colt loads isn't only because of the cylinder demensions but also the location of the cylinder stop notches (which are offset). Regardless of what both Reloader Magazine and John Linebaugh say, more than one or two perfectly good .45 Colts Smith's have been turned into junk when trying to "magnumize" them. Further, I'm continually amazed when I see gunsmith's and reloading column authors who seem to know more than the designers, engineers and ballisticians employed by the manufacturers. This particular subject isn't the only one embroiled in this phenomena either.
If you feel the need for more power than standard .45 Colt loadings provide, the prudent thing to do is get a Ruger .45, a .41 or .44 Magnum Smith & Wesson or one of the very good .454 Casull or .460 S&W revolvers currently on the market.
For what it's worth!
Bruce
Last edited:
Some people crinch at the thought of loading a S&W 45 colt above the ancient standard of 14,000 psi. But, think nothing of the fact that the standard pressure for the 45 acp is 21,000psi and the 45 ACP +P is 23,000 and fire them in the exact same frame with the same cylinder size and wall thickness. Whats with that? Some say get a Ruger, yes the Ruger has a stronger frame, but guess what a Ruger BH cylinder OD is 1.676 and an N frame measures 1.710. Yes, the Smith cyl .034 is larger.
The 44 mag runs at 36,000 psi and it does have a thicker cylinder wall, but the exact same frame that is taking way more punishment than a 45 at 23.000psi
Explain why I shouldn't crank my 45 colt loads up to around 21,000 psi again. I have been running 19 gr of 2400 for 1000fps with a 260 swc for years. I now have a bunch of H110 and am going to 23 gr of it.
Nothing well shot with with a 260 gr .452 at 1000fps is going to react any different than if shot with a 240 gr .429 at 1300fps and the trajectory over 100 yards isn't that much different.
PS, I camp and hunt in bear country on a regular basis. I always take a S&W 45 colt and my mdl 69 and 629 stay in the safe. If I ever do have a bad bear encounter its going to have a LOT more to do with me than the gun. I did see a big tom mountain lion at about 75 yds this year. He was stalking a herd of mule deer and when he saw me he dissipated. I often hunt right across the Tongue river from the Cheyenne reservation. They have lots of horses that run wild and regularly cross the river. People in that area figure that the wild studs are a lot more dangerous than the bears or lions. I figure theey are right.
The 44 mag runs at 36,000 psi and it does have a thicker cylinder wall, but the exact same frame that is taking way more punishment than a 45 at 23.000psi
Explain why I shouldn't crank my 45 colt loads up to around 21,000 psi again. I have been running 19 gr of 2400 for 1000fps with a 260 swc for years. I now have a bunch of H110 and am going to 23 gr of it.
Nothing well shot with with a 260 gr .452 at 1000fps is going to react any different than if shot with a 240 gr .429 at 1300fps and the trajectory over 100 yards isn't that much different.
PS, I camp and hunt in bear country on a regular basis. I always take a S&W 45 colt and my mdl 69 and 629 stay in the safe. If I ever do have a bad bear encounter its going to have a LOT more to do with me than the gun. I did see a big tom mountain lion at about 75 yds this year. He was stalking a herd of mule deer and when he saw me he dissipated. I often hunt right across the Tongue river from the Cheyenne reservation. They have lots of horses that run wild and regularly cross the river. People in that area figure that the wild studs are a lot more dangerous than the bears or lions. I figure theey are right.
Last edited:
fltbed
Member
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2011
- Messages
- 88
- Reaction score
- 44
I'm one of those ones that have been loading up the 45 Colt to it's modern potential since the late 1980's. I've owned and done load testing with several models from Ruger, S&W and Winchester and have 5 or 6 pages of test data collected in my notebook.
Some of the stand out powders in the 45 Colt, in my testing, have been, (in no particular order) Blue Dot, Lil'Gun, 2400, #9, 296/H110, H4227 & 800X.
I prefer cast lead bullets with flat noses and some of the stand out choices have been, (again, in no particular order) Kieth SWC in 270gr & 310gr, LBT WFN 280gr & 300 gr. The best jacketed bullets I've ever tested are the 250gr XTP from Hornady and the Speer 260 gr JHP.
In the past, I've loaded the 45 Colt up to "Ruger levels" but I discovered those guns can take more punishment than I can and for the last 25 years or so, rarely load above the accepted S&W max loads in the 21,000 K range.
In various S&W revolvers, I've gotten 300 gr cast bullets to 1000 f.p.s. (6" barrels) but only with 2400, #9, Lil'Gun and H4227, with outstanding accuracy with #9 when used with a filler like Puf-Lon or Darcon. (Just about all the fine grain Ball powders are position sensitive with some showing over a 200 f.p.s. ES depending on where the powder is in the case.) However, It's very temp sensitive and loses over 100 f.p.s. when the temps drop below freezing. (even when lit with magnum primers)
Lil'Gun is one of my favorite powders in the 45 Colt but it's fallen out of favor with reports of forcing cone erosion in the 454 Casull so, lately I've been experimenting with BE-86, Power Pistol & Longshot. Longshot is promising with the 300 gr bullets but I only just started testing and it's still to early to make a judgement.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
Some of the stand out powders in the 45 Colt, in my testing, have been, (in no particular order) Blue Dot, Lil'Gun, 2400, #9, 296/H110, H4227 & 800X.
I prefer cast lead bullets with flat noses and some of the stand out choices have been, (again, in no particular order) Kieth SWC in 270gr & 310gr, LBT WFN 280gr & 300 gr. The best jacketed bullets I've ever tested are the 250gr XTP from Hornady and the Speer 260 gr JHP.
In the past, I've loaded the 45 Colt up to "Ruger levels" but I discovered those guns can take more punishment than I can and for the last 25 years or so, rarely load above the accepted S&W max loads in the 21,000 K range.
In various S&W revolvers, I've gotten 300 gr cast bullets to 1000 f.p.s. (6" barrels) but only with 2400, #9, Lil'Gun and H4227, with outstanding accuracy with #9 when used with a filler like Puf-Lon or Darcon. (Just about all the fine grain Ball powders are position sensitive with some showing over a 200 f.p.s. ES depending on where the powder is in the case.) However, It's very temp sensitive and loses over 100 f.p.s. when the temps drop below freezing. (even when lit with magnum primers)
Lil'Gun is one of my favorite powders in the 45 Colt but it's fallen out of favor with reports of forcing cone erosion in the 454 Casull so, lately I've been experimenting with BE-86, Power Pistol & Longshot. Longshot is promising with the 300 gr bullets but I only just started testing and it's still to early to make a judgement.
Hope this helps.
Jeff
I'm going with 11gr of HS-6 with the 300 SWC hard cast I should be around 18,000 cup ,around 950 fps out of the 6 1/2 inch barrel , I will let you know how that works out, don't plan on shooting it a lot only when I need to carry a heavy load
thanks guys for all your input
thanks guys for all your input
S.B.
Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,617
- Reaction score
- 725
BruceM
Member
Well steelslaver, I guess that you didn't understand what the problem is with the location of the cylinder stop notches on the Smith cylinder or the fact that the strength of the "frame" has nothing to do with anything in this case and that's both OK and somewhat typical.
S.B.:
That article was already quoted further up the page and is, in fact, old news. I'm sure S&W is happy that Mr. Linebaugh enlightened them regarding something that they didn't already know about their own product. Yes, I realize that the manufacturer's prohibition of the use of reloaded ammo has something to do with it but it's not the determining factor.
As I said, everybody seems to know more than the engineers who designed and manufacture the gun but that's human nature I guess.
Bruce
S.B.:
That article was already quoted further up the page and is, in fact, old news. I'm sure S&W is happy that Mr. Linebaugh enlightened them regarding something that they didn't already know about their own product. Yes, I realize that the manufacturer's prohibition of the use of reloaded ammo has something to do with it but it's not the determining factor.
As I said, everybody seems to know more than the engineers who designed and manufacture the gun but that's human nature I guess.
Bruce
Last edited:
No, having 4 S&W that fire 45 Colts I don't no squat. You said the Ruger had a bigger cylinder. It does not. I know exactly where the cylinder stop notchis and have even measured a few. Have you? I know it is in the exact same place and depth as on my 45 acp guns. Why are they good for up to 23,000 psi while Klaus e my Colts are not???? I have a extra not frame cylinder I will ream it to 45 Colts, make a test frame stick an old 455 barrel in it and proceed to see just what it really takes to blow one up. Bet it going to take more than a published Ruger top load.
I can't understand why a person would want to abuse a quality
revolver by using heavy loads in it. If a guy wants to do this kind
of thing, I would be wise to buy a Ruger S/A to experiment with.
I have seen quite a few revolvers beat apart by heavy loads, even
a Ruger SBH. There was absolutely no practical reason to shoot
these heavy loads.
revolver by using heavy loads in it. If a guy wants to do this kind
of thing, I would be wise to buy a Ruger S/A to experiment with.
I have seen quite a few revolvers beat apart by heavy loads, even
a Ruger SBH. There was absolutely no practical reason to shoot
these heavy loads.
I'm sure your modern high strength steel S&W will easily digest any sane load shown in any reloading manual. But repeated max. loads will prolly hammer any revolver loose after a while. I have a 629 mfg in '85 I believe and I had "Magnumitis" when I first got it I shot many upper level loads (near max.) and after a year of a lot of hard loads I noticed the barrel had twisted about 3 or 4 degrees to the left. I sent the gun back to the factory for repair and when I talked to the service tech. and asked why, were my hot loads the problem, he said that "possibly" many hard/heavy loads "may" have done the damage. Now just use moderate, 240 gr. loads and keep my heavy loads for my Ruger or my Contender...
Last edited:
BruceM
Member
Well, owning & driving multiple cars don't make you an automotive or mechanical engineer and the same goes for any other object. I never said that Ruger cylinders are bigger than Smith & Wesson cylinders although there are on some models I do believe. As for the Smith & Wesson N-Frames, the basic dimensions are all the same and, I believe, the steel alloy. The heat treatment-not so much. Additionally, there is more to containing chamber pressure than the amount of steel surrounding the case. The case itself plays a significant part. .45 Colt cases, even those of modern manufacture, are not know to be pillars of strength although they are perfectly capable of containing the pressures SAAMI designates.
Oh, and by the way, have you ever seen a catastrophic firearm failure due to metal fatigue caused by the incremental damage inflicted by the repeated use of overpressure ammunition? Wait, you must have due to your extensive "experience" firing multiple firearms.
Flail away.
Bruce
Last edited:
First of all the Heat treatment on all the modern Smiths is the same. Next several of my 45 colts were made from 44 mags. I don't just shoot them I make them. I am very versed in steel and heat treating and have been heat treating for years and have worked closely with several mechanical engineers over the my years and have had to get them to sign off on my mechanical designs, even on pressure equipment. I have pressure tested thousands of pieces of critical equipment under ASME and API specs. Have witnessed the testing and results of a bunch of different procedures such as X ray, ultrasonic, wave test etc. I have seen failure of pressure equipment first hand and helped dissect the components. I have sawed thousands of used pressure tubes in half prepped them for inspection and been there when the engineers and AI inspected them. By the way, a small thin spot (similar to a cylinder stop) does NOT limit the pressure to the thickness of the spot. That is effected by its size in relationship to the diameter of the tube and the surrounding area thickness. Ever notice brass doesn't blow out in small unsupported areas? Last year I spend 2 months running the testing slab and supervising the rebuilding of pressure equipment at a oil refinery and have already been asked to do it during the next cycle. They pay me very well to come out of retirement for these jobs. For one thing the engineers at that plant know me and trust me. I will call one of them Monday and ask him what he thinks about APC cylinder pressures vs 45 Colt and if there is a reason one should be good to a higherr pressure than the other.
What is your experience?
Can you explain why a tube that has a 1/2 od and .035 walls will take way more pressure than a 6" tube with .375 walls. with the same material? I can,
Why do you think a 45 acp cylinder is OK to a higher pressure than a 45 colt?
Why do you think a 45 colt 260gr at 21,000 psi subjects the frame to more stress than a 44 mag 240gr at 36,000 psi?
Do what you want feel what you want, I will keep running my 45 colts in the 20,000psi range and pass them down to my kids when I am done with them and never worry about it.
But, I do feel you should have something more besides the fact that loading manuals worry about some guy with an old worn out colt single action from 1890. Should they have old colt single action loads, Taurus loads, S&W loads and Ruger loads? S&W doesn't ok any hand loads even for 44 mags or 6 shot 357 N frames with cylinder walls way thicker than on my 500 mag. and they are not going to change the limits on factory loads. Just where are all the blown up S&W 45 colts that were using loads under 24,000psi? Just aren't any. I do see and hear of lots of blown up 44 mags though..
What is your experience?
Can you explain why a tube that has a 1/2 od and .035 walls will take way more pressure than a 6" tube with .375 walls. with the same material? I can,
Why do you think a 45 acp cylinder is OK to a higher pressure than a 45 colt?
Why do you think a 45 colt 260gr at 21,000 psi subjects the frame to more stress than a 44 mag 240gr at 36,000 psi?
Do what you want feel what you want, I will keep running my 45 colts in the 20,000psi range and pass them down to my kids when I am done with them and never worry about it.
But, I do feel you should have something more besides the fact that loading manuals worry about some guy with an old worn out colt single action from 1890. Should they have old colt single action loads, Taurus loads, S&W loads and Ruger loads? S&W doesn't ok any hand loads even for 44 mags or 6 shot 357 N frames with cylinder walls way thicker than on my 500 mag. and they are not going to change the limits on factory loads. Just where are all the blown up S&W 45 colts that were using loads under 24,000psi? Just aren't any. I do see and hear of lots of blown up 44 mags though..
Last edited:
