S&W model 25-15 max loads
- Thread starter dbress
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I just got off the phone with the engineer I know. I explained to him about the differences between a 45 ACP cylinder and a 45 colt cylinder, the cylinder notch, etc and this whole controversy. He said he did not see any reason that a 45 colt cylinder would not handle the same pressures as the 45 acp cylinder. He did say that it is possible that the bigger case might actually fair better because although we tend to think of such explosions as generating pressure equally in all directions they are not actually instantly evenly distributed and the larger the volume of the containment vessel the better it is about equalizing.
Once again I am not really advocate of maximum pressures. The was a time in my late 20s and early 30s (30+ years ago) when everything was to the max and beyond. There was a time when I fired 24 gr of 2400 behind a 240 gr bullet in 44 mag. 22 gr behind a 255 in 45 colt, pushed my 220 Swift hard etc.etc. Never blew a gun up, ( did eat the throat out of the 220 Swift) but I don't see the need for that stuff anymore. I don't max load anything any more.
But, I simply do not believe that a 45 colt running 21,000 is abusing it any more than firing 21,000 in my acp loads. 3 of my 45s are cut for full moons and fire both rounds. The S&W 45 colts are fine modern guns that have been held in check by the factory loadings that are held in check by the limits of some of the older guns and cases for the round, S&W policy about using only factory loads in ALL of its guns. I only fire mild loads in my 455 triple lock that was reamed to 45 colt. Older gun, poorer steel and heat treat and it is just to cool to mess around with. I only load round nose bullets for it just to make sure one of my hotter rounds never ends up in it.
I do have a couple old S&W 45 barrels and some N frame cylinders. I have been thinking for a while about milling a cutout in a large block of steel to hold a cylinder and barrel along with a remote firing mechanism, mounting the whole thing on a heavy plate and starting at 21 gr of 2400 and 260 gr bullets and going up .5 gr at a time, measure the cylinder after each firing and go till I blow the cylinder. It will have to be a shorter cylinder as I don't want to sacrifice a longer 44 mag length cylinder. I could built a steel hood to cover the top and rear of the test gun to contain the piece. Should be fun when I get some my other projects on my long list done.
Once again I am not really advocate of maximum pressures. The was a time in my late 20s and early 30s (30+ years ago) when everything was to the max and beyond. There was a time when I fired 24 gr of 2400 behind a 240 gr bullet in 44 mag. 22 gr behind a 255 in 45 colt, pushed my 220 Swift hard etc.etc. Never blew a gun up, ( did eat the throat out of the 220 Swift) but I don't see the need for that stuff anymore. I don't max load anything any more.
But, I simply do not believe that a 45 colt running 21,000 is abusing it any more than firing 21,000 in my acp loads. 3 of my 45s are cut for full moons and fire both rounds. The S&W 45 colts are fine modern guns that have been held in check by the factory loadings that are held in check by the limits of some of the older guns and cases for the round, S&W policy about using only factory loads in ALL of its guns. I only fire mild loads in my 455 triple lock that was reamed to 45 colt. Older gun, poorer steel and heat treat and it is just to cool to mess around with. I only load round nose bullets for it just to make sure one of my hotter rounds never ends up in it.
I do have a couple old S&W 45 barrels and some N frame cylinders. I have been thinking for a while about milling a cutout in a large block of steel to hold a cylinder and barrel along with a remote firing mechanism, mounting the whole thing on a heavy plate and starting at 21 gr of 2400 and 260 gr bullets and going up .5 gr at a time, measure the cylinder after each firing and go till I blow the cylinder. It will have to be a shorter cylinder as I don't want to sacrifice a longer 44 mag length cylinder. I could built a steel hood to cover the top and rear of the test gun to contain the piece. Should be fun when I get some my other projects on my long list done.
Groo01
Member
Groo here
Why a 300 gr bullet?
I got in the heavy bullet train years ago.
After how poor it performed on Ohio game I went to normal weight
HP's.[ the load was 44mag/320gr cast/1300fp went through like a drill press and deer ran off- the load was for elephant! not enough deer to work on!!]
The 45 colt 255gr RN lead bullet at 950fps was known to blow
through a horse , side to side, and the man on the other side.
This is easy to get in a 45 colt or 45 acp revolver.
what more do you need?????
Why a 300 gr bullet?
I got in the heavy bullet train years ago.
After how poor it performed on Ohio game I went to normal weight
HP's.[ the load was 44mag/320gr cast/1300fp went through like a drill press and deer ran off- the load was for elephant! not enough deer to work on!!]
The 45 colt 255gr RN lead bullet at 950fps was known to blow
through a horse , side to side, and the man on the other side.
This is easy to get in a 45 colt or 45 acp revolver.
what more do you need?????
m657
Member
Appreciate the discussion here above. The issue for me is not relevant, as in my own 'pressure vessel' there are plenty of creaks and groans and effects of long-established abuse/overuse/overload.
Heavy loads no longer are pleasurable, viable, accurate or necessary in my doddering ever increasing geezeritis.
A few days ago I shot some heavy factory defense loads from a buddies new titanium 4" 629.
While his upgraded grips were quite comfy, and the general recoil "not all that bad".....I was forced to admit at 40' and 24 rounds, hitting that little 6" falling plate 3 times wasn't 'within spec' regardless of whatever feats of engineering made the loud bangs possible.
Not to distract from the metallurgy etc, the last few weeks have exposed me to a couple of the 'large big bore' ideas....in bowling pin competition (around 50') one guy likes to shoot his 454 Casul...no big deal, he generally never hits a single pin, perhaps due to his neurological tremor. Another was cheered onward with his 4" 500 S&W Magnum....after 18 shots no pins were touched.
For my efforts, the joy of shooting works better in my hand in stepping down from the extremes.
Heavy loads no longer are pleasurable, viable, accurate or necessary in my doddering ever increasing geezeritis.
A few days ago I shot some heavy factory defense loads from a buddies new titanium 4" 629.
While his upgraded grips were quite comfy, and the general recoil "not all that bad".....I was forced to admit at 40' and 24 rounds, hitting that little 6" falling plate 3 times wasn't 'within spec' regardless of whatever feats of engineering made the loud bangs possible.
Not to distract from the metallurgy etc, the last few weeks have exposed me to a couple of the 'large big bore' ideas....in bowling pin competition (around 50') one guy likes to shoot his 454 Casul...no big deal, he generally never hits a single pin, perhaps due to his neurological tremor. Another was cheered onward with his 4" 500 S&W Magnum....after 18 shots no pins were touched.
For my efforts, the joy of shooting works better in my hand in stepping down from the extremes.
Another consideration is: How accurate will a 300 grain bullet be, when fired from a model 25?
I don't know for sure, but your revolver may not have a tight enough twist rate to properly stabilize that projectile at those velocities.
My Marlin 1894P .44 Mag carbine sure doesn't like them. It's happier with 240 grain bullets, as is my shoulder.
I don't even hot rod my loads in the carbine. If I want more power, I have a .444 that handles the .310 grain bullets much better than my shoulder does.
I have loaded/shot "Ruger Only" .45 Colt loads in my Blackhawk .45 Convertible.
Not the most fun I've ever had. 250 grain at 900 fps is a lot more comfortable to shoot, and hits like a train.
I don't know for sure, but your revolver may not have a tight enough twist rate to properly stabilize that projectile at those velocities.
My Marlin 1894P .44 Mag carbine sure doesn't like them. It's happier with 240 grain bullets, as is my shoulder.
I don't even hot rod my loads in the carbine. If I want more power, I have a .444 that handles the .310 grain bullets much better than my shoulder does.
I have loaded/shot "Ruger Only" .45 Colt loads in my Blackhawk .45 Convertible.
Not the most fun I've ever had. 250 grain at 900 fps is a lot more comfortable to shoot, and hits like a train.
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He was probably knocking them over with the muzzle blast.
As for Mr. Jaymo, I'll say that I've had good luck shooting Lee's 300 grain cast bullet from my 45 ACP 22-4 1917, at stated pressures low enough to be safe for the original pre war steel 1917's, and humming around 730 fps, being stabilized well. I don't have the twist rates at hand, but if my revolver can stabilize them, I can only guess the M25 would too. The latest Lyman cast bullet handbook even lists a 300 grain bullet load for the low pressure 45 Colt. 44 Magnum has more trouble stabilizing the same weight of heavy bullet because the bullets are longer, therefore 300 grains is more problematic for .429.
BruceM
Member
LOL You know what I meant. The same load at even +P pressure does not blow out although it is not supported. Take a semi auto and hog out the ramp wider and father into the chamber and it will bulge cases at low pressures. The depth of the less supported area is only part of the story, it is also effected by the size and shape of the area and the mass surrounding the area.
Yes, the notch is the weakest point. But, a tube that was entirely the thickness of the thinnest spot of the cylinder notch would fail even at 14,000 psi. If you don't believe that why are cylinders all so heavy? They could all be as thin as the cylinder notch through out if the thickness of the thinnest spot was the entire story.
Yes, the notch is the weakest point. But, a tube that was entirely the thickness of the thinnest spot of the cylinder notch would fail even at 14,000 psi. If you don't believe that why are cylinders all so heavy? They could all be as thin as the cylinder notch through out if the thickness of the thinnest spot was the entire story.
I suppose that makes sense. Although, a .44 mag 300 grainer is moving a helluva lot faster from my carbine than the 300 grain .45 bullet is from a revolver.
I think I'm going to get some heavy bullet molds for my .45 convertible Blackhawk (large frame).
Even at more sedate velocities, they pack a punch.
Grayfox
US Veteran
Some years back I did some wandering in bear country. So I worked up a load for my 25-5 with 300gr LFP bullets right at 1000 fps. It was a good load and quite accurate, but recoil was stout. I figured that would be plenty if needed. But I shoot them very sparingly.
Now considering that the average standard velocity 250-255gr .45 Colt load will go completely through your average whitetail deer, I see no reason to hot rod the .45 Colt any more.
I still have about 100 or so of those 300gr bullets, but I seriously doubt I'll ever use them.
Now considering that the average standard velocity 250-255gr .45 Colt load will go completely through your average whitetail deer, I see no reason to hot rod the .45 Colt any more.
I still have about 100 or so of those 300gr bullets, but I seriously doubt I'll ever use them.
Vortec MAX
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I would not drive a 300 grain bullet to 1,100 FPS in a model 25. That has to be approaching 44 MAG pressures. I would probably take them up to the 20K PSI pressures shown in Handloader #246, but the problem is... that article does not have any data on 300 grain bullets. There is no source for data in that pressure range using 300 grain bullets that I am aware of. There was only one load that hit your 1,100 FPS mark with a 280 grain bullet in that article (20 grains less than your bullet) in the 20K PSI table.
I think you are crazy to pursue this. You are going to end up fragging your model 25 and probably your hand. Just get a 44 Magnum if you want to have that kind of performance... and keep all your fingers.
Just my .02.
Mike
I think you are crazy to pursue this. You are going to end up fragging your model 25 and probably your hand. Just get a 44 Magnum if you want to have that kind of performance... and keep all your fingers.
Just my .02.
Mike
I suggested that. He seemed...unwilling to accept that advice.
The existing .45 Colt loads are all quite capable. Performance beyond that can be had in a cartridge of similar size, in guns that are the same size, and are both common and relatively inexpensive. Alternatively, one can side-step to the Ruger and have a gun known to handle the desired load.
The existing .45 Colt loads are all quite capable. Performance beyond that can be had in a cartridge of similar size, in guns that are the same size, and are both common and relatively inexpensive. Alternatively, one can side-step to the Ruger and have a gun known to handle the desired load.
SLT223
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Or a Freedom Arms. I'm about use exactly this loading scenario to purchase a single action .454 Cassul. Isn't heavy .451" bullets & high velocity the reason the .454 exists?
I asked the exact same question as the OP about three months ago here. The 25-15 is still sitting at the LGS and I still want it, but I think I prefer the safe flexability of the .454.
I have talked to a local reloader at a LGS and he has advised me to go to 11.5 gr of HS-6 that would put me at 925 fps and under 20,000 cup, I should add he said to start at 10 and go up from there to find the best accuracy/performance , does that seem reasonable ?????
Vortec MAX
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That does sound more reasonable. I would fully expect you to retain all your digits with that load
Mike
USSR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbress View Post
I have talked to a local reloader at a LGS and he has advised me to go to 11.5 gr of HS-6 that would put me at 925 fps and under 20,000 cup, I should add he said to start at 10 and go up from there to find the best accuracy/performance , does that seem reasonable ?????
That is actually a mild load, so of course there is no digit problem. You guys really need to read John Linebaugh's article concerning the Model 25. One of his favorite loads for the 25-5 (and I use it as well) is 13.0gr of HS-6.
Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5
Don
Originally Posted by dbress View Post
I have talked to a local reloader at a LGS and he has advised me to go to 11.5 gr of HS-6 that would put me at 925 fps and under 20,000 cup, I should add he said to start at 10 and go up from there to find the best accuracy/performance , does that seem reasonable ?????
That does sound more reasonable. I would fully expect you to retain all your digits with that load
Mike
That is actually a mild load, so of course there is no digit problem. You guys really need to read John Linebaugh's article concerning the Model 25. One of his favorite loads for the 25-5 (and I use it as well) is 13.0gr of HS-6.
Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5
Don
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USSR
Member
Well, Steve, all I can say is, it appears that some of the so-called "experts" here are a legend in their own mind. I have spoken to John Linebaugh on a couple of occasions, and personally, I would take the advice of someone who builds revolvers chambered in .45 Colt for a living over the keyboard experts here. Just MHO.
Don
Don
Vortec MAX
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The article shows a 260 grain bullet with that recipe. The OP was going to be shooting 300 grain bullets.
Mike
USSR
Member
Mike,
Right you are. The bullet weight was not mentioned in the last couple of posts, and I failed to go up to the OP. While my SWCHP's at 265gr are heavy enough for me, I would not use HS-6 if I shot 300gr bullets. I would use a slower powder such as 2400 or 4227.
Don
Right you are. The bullet weight was not mentioned in the last couple of posts, and I failed to go up to the OP. While my SWCHP's at 265gr are heavy enough for me, I would not use HS-6 if I shot 300gr bullets. I would use a slower powder such as 2400 or 4227.
Don
The data I gave you in post #9, for the RCBS 45-270, actually weight ~285grs.
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USSR
Member
Yes, see the above post. I would suggest you use a slower burn rate powder with a 300 grain bullet.
Don
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