S&W phasing out metal auto 3rd gens?

Atlanta_SW40

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So on another forum some chaps are going on about how S&W is going to stop producing the full metal 3rd gen autos due to decreased LE sales. The focus would then move to promoting the M&P as their go to go gun for all LE sales and sales to the general public.

I myself find this hard to believe, maybe a part of me just doesn't want to believe it since I've recently just obtained my first all metal 3rd gen a couple of weeks ago and am in love. Also another part of me finds if hard to believe that S&W expects to carry their brand and rep on guns like the low end Sigma and the low selling SW99.

So has anyone heard anything to confirm or deny these accusations?
 
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The current company calling itself S&W doesn't seem to concern itself with anything but profit.

More profit in tupperware guns. So much profit that they are able to give them to agencies for FREE.....well....in exchange for the agencies current issue handguns.

Less profit in 3rd generation pistols. They cost more to make, and are better pistols than the plastic striker fired.....stuff....they are pushing out the door and profiting from.

Since they already compete with themselves in the revolver market, they don't want to compete with themselves on the semi auto front too. Although given what they make I forsee them doing just that! My 0.02 Regards 18DAI.
 
First of all most forum rumors are worth about as much as "Chicago 2016 Olympics" t-shirt on eBay. S&W stopped mass producing most of the 3rd Gens awhile ago. But they have, and will, produce any model from their 3rd Gen line for the right price (or if you order enough guns). Producing an all stainless steel auto is getting more and more expensive, which is why they came out with the value line in the first place. I fully agree that S&W is profit driven, but they have to be. As more and more companies emerge with sub-$500 guns S&W has to compete or go belly up. And since I am counting on them to maintain their lifetime warranty for a long long time, I am all for them staying in business.
 
This is the exact reason I am only buying old revolvers and old 1911. They were made to do what a pistol is intended to do, and they do it without plastic, cotton, or MIM. Anyone who buys a new Sigma, M&P, HiPoint, Walther, Whatever deserves what they get. I will pay, and handsomely, for a good pistol. I will not pay through the nose for a mediocre one (see also Kimber) or pay what should be a decent price for a sub par design (see the new walther stuff and the M&P). Spears are made of steel, axes are made of steel, swords are made of steel, knives are made of steel; Glocks, M&Ps, XDs, and Rugers are made of....plastic.
 
You can hear different rumors, even from among different S&W employees. Not surprising.

Last I heard the 3rd gen production was being shifted (already shifted?) to the Houlton, Maine plant to make room at the headquarters factory for increased production of the M&P product lines.

I've heard speculation that the company may decide to stop new production of the TSW and Chiefs Special lines within the next 10-15 years. Who knows?

The plastic guns are simply more profitable, as well as being easier to sell for reduced cost for contract sales. This has been discovered by most of the major makers who do a lot of business with LE/Gov customers. Look at the way Beretta and Sig Sauer have submitted their own entries to this potential new market.

Don't be surprised to see S&W offering to exchange older 3rd gen guns being used by LE/Gov customers straight across for M&P pistols. (And it's not like this isn't done by the competition upon occasion. ;) ) They've done it for some customers who were using the SW99's. Why not users of the 3rd gen guns, especially for agencies who are looking to trade out because of an aging inventory, disparate impact considerations (being able to adapt grip dimensions to different shooters) or for reason of armorer support/training, etc?

As much as many of us appreciate and enjoy the metal-framed TDA guns, the commercial market for the cataloged 3rd gen guns just didn't remain profitable for the company when the market experienced a significant shift to the plastic pistol concept.

Look how Sig Sauer has gone the route of the 'gun of the month' model variations trying to keep their share of the non-LE/Gov market. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the ongoing development and revision of the new P250 model line receive increasingly more attention and really become their 'flagship' model line at some point ( at least for LE customers). There will be the same sort of wailing, moaning and general lamentation heard among Sig Sauer enthusiasts and loyalists are has been heard among the same constituency of S&W 3rd gen owners, no doubt. Look at the way Sig owners already hotly debate differences and merits of the American manufactured model lines compared to the stamped & welded German manufactured models.

If I were to guess, I'd doubt the 3rd gen guns will disappear quickly. Parts and support will continue for many years because of the number of guns still in service and still being ordered and bought by some LE customers. The 3rd gen armorer classes are still being scheduled, both at the factory and in the field. (I re-certified a while back at my 4th 3rd gen armorer class.)

I really like my 3rd gen guns. A lot. Over 20 years of carrying one or another S&W 3rd gen TDA gun I've come to appreciate their qualities for everyday defensive service weapons. Sure, I'm still a long time 1911 owner/user and I've become familiar and conversant with some of the different plastic framed service-type guns ... and I still like revolvers ;) ... but I'll always enjoy owning, carrying and using a number of outstanding 3rd gen guns.

Doesn't mean the baseline bread & butter customers who will determine the course of the future of pistol production for S&W will necessarily share my experiences and feelings, though, especially among the younger customer base who is easily influenced by the latest & newest thing in gun mags, at the gun stores and what they see thrown in their face in video games, TV shows and Movies.

Time marches on ...

Sigh ...
 
S&W are merely focusing on what the public will buy. Sales of their all metal guns does not justify continued production of them. Police department long ago dumped their all metal guns in favor of Glocks. The public appears to have followed suit. The good news is that you can get a good deal on a used all metal pistol right now. I bought a lightly used 4583 with utility rail for $500 and love it.
 
Plastic pistol concept. Translation: using inferior materials to make an inferior tool that will need to be replaced at regular intervals ensuring continued profit.

Often materials define a civilization. First came the stone age. Stone tools could not hold and edge, were brittle, and difficult to fabricate. Bronze was a huge advancement over stone. Edges were possible. Effective weapons, tools, labor-saving plows and other simple machines allowed food production to increase and allowed people to protect themselves and their food/land from thieves. This made possible by bronze. If it were not for bronze, some hold that written language would have never developed because efficient agriculture, which produced a surplus of food, which was then "marked" by its owner, would have never happened. Eventually steel came along, the material that enabled modern civilization, the industrial revolution, huge advances in material comfort and leisure time. Since steel, there has been no material that has really caused a revolution in human affairs...except, perhaps, plastic, which is a material that is retrograde compared to steel, wood, and other materials.

Plastic has very few applications where it is truly superior to another material. Perhaps an artificial heart or surgical glove. Usually plastic is used because it is easier to work with than the traditional material. Vinyl siding is cheaper to put up than wood. Nylon is cheaper to make than silk, linen, hemp, cotton, or wool. Plastic milk jugs are cheaper to make than glass. Plastic piano keys are cheaper to fabricate than ivory or bone. Polymer guns are easier to form than steel. This is mainly because plastic is very easy to form through injection processes rather than material removal processes that require tools and a workman.

In many ways plastic is merely a symbol of our civilization's decline. All successful civilizations have chosen to use the best materials available to them for what they felt was important since they had hope for the future and a feeling of duty towards their descendants. This is why cathedrals were built of stone when wood was available. Only a diseased civilization deliberately makes things with shoddy materials.

My great-grandfather's STEEL M1905 is still working fine...and it has the best trigger I have ever felt on any handgun. Will your great grand child even know you have a Glock? If he does, will it be treasured as an object of a workman's skill? Or will it be like so many cheap plastic toys strewn about on the floor.

If you ever sit back and wonder what is wrong with the world today...at least one of your answers should be plastic, which is just a symbol of our throwaway "values" and contempt for quality and longevity.

I will never own a plastic gun or have one with a plastic stock. You could never get me to trade my Garand for a AR-10! I would never trade my 1076 for a Glock 20!

The plastic (Derlin) grips on 3rd Gen S&Ws are troublesome enough to me to go out and get some rubber or hardwood ones from Hogue!
 
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Couldn't agree more with curioushooter!

I'll take my wheel guns & older semi's over the new stuff any day.

I won't be around but let's see how a Glock 17 looks after 50 years of service!
 
Plastic pistol concept. Translation: using inferior materials to make an inferior tool that will need to be replaced at regular intervals ensuring continued profit.



Plastic has very few applications where it is truly superior to another material. Perhaps an artificial heart or surgical glove. Usually plastic is used because it is easier to work with than the traditional material. Vinyl siding is cheaper to put up than wood. Nylon is cheaper to make than silk, linen, hemp, cotton, or wool. Plastic milk jugs are cheaper to make than glass. Plastic piano keys are cheaper to fabricate than ivory or bone. Polymer guns are easier to form than steel. This is mainly because plastic is very easy to form through injection processes rather than material removal processes that require tools and a workman.

In many ways plastic is merely a symbol of our civilization's decline. All successful civilizations have chosen to use the best materials available to them for what they felt was important since they had hope for the future and a feeling of duty towards their descendants. This is why cathedrals were built of stone when wood was available. Only a diseased civilization deliberately makes things with shoddy materials.



If you ever sit back and wonder what is wrong with the world today...at least one of your answers should be plastic, which is just a symbol of our throwaway "values" and contempt for quality and longevity.

I will never own a plastic gun or have one with a plastic stock. You could never get me to trade my Garand for a AR-10! I would never trade my 1076 for a Glock 20!

The plastic (Derlin) grips on 3rd Gen S&Ws are troublesome enough to me to go out and get some rubber or hardwood ones from Hogue!

You should take your plastic mouse and keyboard and throw them in the trash, and then you should repost that in steel! That would be AWESOME!!!
Mike
 
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Smith & Wesson Metal Guns

I shoot at the Smith Shooting sports center with a few employees.

They say that the move to Houlton, Maine (Going on now) correlates with the current drop in production for the 3rd gen guns (Due to the move) only because of a large investment in new cnc machinery being procurred and setup for future production (in Houlton)

This sounds more like a transition to a better product, with a little production lag as a result rather than production being ceased
 
My Glock service pistol of 25 years, with zero cosmetic maintenace, looks way better than my NYPD model 10 revolver does of half the years. I admit I had many thoughts on reasons for the downfall of society, kids having kids that our Gov't pays for, Obamacare, lack of education, TV shows promoting bad morals like Maury Povich, excessive drug use, pollution, using up our natural resources, over population, focusing on wrong ideals ( like Tiger W ), but maybe it really is Plastic. ( Yes, I know it was a run-on sentence, hence lack of education )
 
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You should take your plastic mouse and keyboard and throw them in the trash, and then you should repost that in steel! That would be AWESOME!!!
Mike

Actually my keyboard is anodized aluminum and my mousepad is rubberized fabric.

There are obviously some good applications for plastic. Romex is a good example, or PVC tubing, certain modern products that pretty much cannot be made of anything besides plastic like certain medical devices. There are far more applications where plastic has invaded, and been used, simply because it is cheaper and will wear out and need to be replaced. Firearms are an example of this. I find amusing that Glocks use this little metal wing thing welded into their frames to provide slide guidance. If plastic is so great, why not use a plastic frame slide rail? The Ruger P345 does, and who knows what its long term dimensional stability will be like? Glock knows the answer (probably) and they understand the nature of plastic!

The wholesale abandonment of traditional (and better) material for plastic not only introduced annoyance and ugliness into our lives (I prefer glass or metal food containers over plastic because plastic leaves a nasty taste and turns out leeches into the food leaving harmful substances in it is just one example), but I think it is a reflection of the large scale decline of our people. The fact that most American police departments issue Austrian made plastic guns when they used to issue American made stainless steel guns is an obvious indication of our decline.

I for one disagree with the notion that metallurgy has to be more expensive that, er...plastilurgy (notice there is no noun for the working of plastic, because it is not worked). Ruger showed the world what can be done with investment casting! The other 'Merican makers seem so reluctant to innovate in their manufacturing processes. The 3rd Gen S&Ws were cutting edge in the late 80s early 90s! Why don't we have 4th Gen using even more efficient means of manufacture? Is there a lack of will, of spine, or is it just easier to follow the stupid wagon off the plastic pistol cliff into mediocrity?
 
Most of the time there is an issue of consumer demand and what you can market and sell. The .380 is really the most effective round and ammo is very scarce, but the consumers wanted more .380's and the manufacturers responded in kind. Consumers love polymer framed guns, and so do law enforcement agencies, so the manufacturers responded in kind. I am sure it would be nice if gun manufacturers could cater to every individuals wants and desires for their manufacturing decisions and processes, but let's get real.

Is there a lack of will, of spine, or is it just easier to follow the stupid wagon off the plastic pistol cliff into mediocrity?

It's easier to stay in business by selling the guns the consumers want. Not just a couple consumers, but the gun-buying masses. There are a lot of strong willed brave entrepreneurs dipping fries in grease at McDonald's.
 
It's easier to stay in business by selling the guns the consumers want. Not just a couple consumers, but the gun-buying masses.

Bingo.

I've made similar rants to the anti-plastic crowd about automatic transmissions and front wheel drive.

But the sad reality is that probably less than 10% of the driving public prefers manual transmissions and rear wheel drive.
 
In response to the entire "it's what people want so you can't blame the company for giving them what they want" line of thinking...

The human experience is about EDUCATION: knowing what is worth knowing. Otherwise we are clever apes. Children would probably eat snow-cones exclusively if allowed to, and un-educated adults do the same thing. Someone is educated when they know what is good and worth doing. Eating vegetables is good and worth doing if you want to have good health. Tradition, intellect, and experimentation are the tools we have for knowing things. Tradition indicates that steel is the material of choice for guns, intellect can proves this trough demonstration of what properties of steel make this true, and experimentation shows that steel guns far outlast polymer and offer superior shooting dynamics (accuracy, balance). I for one have never seen a polymer-framed target competition pistol.

Same goes for standard transmissions and rear-drive. Better fuel economy, acceleration, and ability to control the transmission (for engine breaking, etc) are good features and actually cost less than automatics. You may notice that about 50% of Europeans drive standards, while 95% of Americans drive autos. So at least not everybody is ignorant...yet.

Rear drive "feels" better and performs better. All competition grade cars are rear drive (a few 4 wheel drives ones have existed). The best anybody could ever do with handling in a FWD was the Honda Prelude (Car and Driver did an extensive handling test back in the early oughts), which featured a special torque transfer system that attempted to make up for the deficiencies of FWD in cornering. The fact that the car has this system proves that FWD is inferior to RWD. Sort of like the goofy metal slide guide on a Glock. If polymer is so great, then why do you have this little metal thing doing the real work of the frame: guiding the slide? Notice too how Glocks now have steel inserts in the mag wells so a tightly gripped hand wont prevent the magazine from releasing.

People like .380 auto because they are un-educated. It is an underpowered cartridge. It's only respectable feature is that it is so underpowered that it works in straight-blowback pistols, which are inferior designs in terms of longevity. Almost all "experts" agree that a .38 SPL +P or 9mm Para is the MINIMUM power level for social work. 38 Super, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, 45 ACP, and 10mm are all better choices. Remember when .25 ACP was the rage a while back? Finally people woke up to the fact they were shooting grossly overpriced .22 LR!

People like polymer framed pistols because they are either penny wise and dollar foolish or they are un-educated. If they knew the drawbacks, and knew the modest increased expense using steel, they would buy steel. The fact is many people are rather like sheep: "everybody buys a polymer .380 pocket-pistol so I will?" I find the same type of thinking with certain brands of pistols that start with the letter G and end with the letter K.

The educated pistol shooter selects a H&K P7, a 3rd Gen S&W, heck even a 1911! The REALLY uneducated buy things like Hi-Points. The sophomores (wise fools) buy better quality polymer framed pistols and such.

The educated beer drinker drinks Trappist brew, the uneducated drink PBR, and those that think they know what is good drink Sam Adams.

It's easier to stay in business by selling the guns the consumers want. Not just a couple consumers, but the gun-buying masses. There are a lot of strong willed brave entrepreneurs dipping fries in grease at McDonald's.

No company will stay in business long with the strategy of giving people what they want. Competition will assure demise of any company with this idea. Co-operation is far more profitable (that is monopolies form). Great companies only stay in business by creating new markets, taking over existing markets, or changing the market in a way that gives them an advantage if they don't co-operate.

The sad fact is that if the firearms companies spent a dime on broadening the appeal of shooting for every dollar they spend trying to get everybody that already owns a good pistol to go out and buy a plastic one, they would be profitable and we wouldn't have to worry about losing our liberties.

I see people all around me spending lots of money pretending to shoot things (video games), but I am one of the few I know that actually shoots. I am fairly convinced the launching of a projectile is a uniquely human activity (no animals do it with any efficacy) and something we inherently enjoy (almost all our sports involve a projectile of some sort, the most refined sports have the most refined focus on the use of the projectile: golf, bowling, shooting). If the companies could tap into this, they would make the professional sports looks like chump change. In countries where shooting is a major sport (Finland, perhaps second to hockey and Switzerland perhaps second to skiing), people are more educated and shooting is respectable. It is supported by the government to a degree instead of operating under a cloud of suspicion.

downfall of society, kids having kids that our Gov't pays for, Obamacare, lack of education, TV shows promoting bad morals like Maury Povich, excessive drug use, pollution, using up our natural resources, over population, focusing on wrong ideals ( like Tiger W ), but maybe it really is Plastic. ( Yes, I know it was a run-on sentence, hence lack of education )

Couldn't agree more. Preference for plastic is a symptom of the disease in the same way as these other things you mention here.
 
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So based on your logic if someone actually like a .380acp Hi-Point they are uneducated?

So when Jim Corely pulled out a Kel-Tec P32 and shot and killed a would-be attacker he was uneducated?

So when Rob Leatham uses his Springfield Armory XD Tactical for Production Class competitions he is uneducated?

So when 8 time National Champion Bob Vogel uses one of several Glocks to win competitions he is uneducated?

It seems you have set the bar of intelligence and rationale thinking in regards to guns, cars and beer right at your height. I will go ahead and agree to disagree with your point of view. And for the record, I don't drink so I think pretty much all beer is grotesque. Guess I am uneducated to.



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