Man, it was a lot easier when gunny had the amorer give us what we got. No thought just grab and learn. But now I have to buy and retrain. Where to start? I’d like to know that my choice would be more than a weekend toy. What if we needed a REAL 5.56 to hold up?
S&W, Ruger, Colt, which AR-15?
- Thread starter louisq
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cyphertext
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All three are major firearms manufacturers... do you honestly believe that any of the 3 will not meet your needs?
If you want the closest to the military specs, get the Colt 6920. Other than that, depends on the features you want.
I have the first generation of the M&P 15 Sport... nothing fancy and not milspec, but a fine rifle.
If you want the closest to the military specs, get the Colt 6920. Other than that, depends on the features you want.
I have the first generation of the M&P 15 Sport... nothing fancy and not milspec, but a fine rifle.
rockquarry
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I don't know whether there is really any real "field" difference in any of these guns, but Colt remains the original based on the Armalite design. It may cost a little more but will likely retain value better than the S&W or Ruger and will be easier to sell or trade on the used market.
I bought three Colt products when I became interested in these guns several years ago. I have no complaints. They've been trouble-free, accurate, and appear to be of very good quality. I'm sure there are others that can say the same about the S&W and Ruger copies.
Ribwizzard
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I bought the 6920 edition with the SL magpul furniture, immediately felt the difference in how fast the colt shoots. Added a gieselle Ssae trigger, holy cow. Also bought the new colt mid length upper .
noro
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Louis,
Also depends on how much you want to spend. You can find all 3
at attractive prices depending where you look. In my case, I have
all 3 - no problems with Colt and Ruger in 1500 rounds each.
My M&P15 Sport 11 was repaired by the factory at no cost for warranty work after about 1500 rounds. The details are in another post (M&P15 sport short stroking) Do I trust it going forward? Yes, I do and the company that stands behind it. Personally, JMHO, all 3 are quality weapons. Check out all 3 and see what talks to you and what you're willing to spend on it.
Also depends on how much you want to spend. You can find all 3
at attractive prices depending where you look. In my case, I have
all 3 - no problems with Colt and Ruger in 1500 rounds each.
My M&P15 Sport 11 was repaired by the factory at no cost for warranty work after about 1500 rounds. The details are in another post (M&P15 sport short stroking) Do I trust it going forward? Yes, I do and the company that stands behind it. Personally, JMHO, all 3 are quality weapons. Check out all 3 and see what talks to you and what you're willing to spend on it.
Luger9x19
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"S&W, Ruger, Colt, which AR-15?"
All of the above!
Once you get one you will want more. Why not one of each?
In all fairness, with those three choices you really can't go wrong. They are all good rifles and will fit the bill when SHTF.
All of the above!
Once you get one you will want more. Why not one of each?
In all fairness, with those three choices you really can't go wrong. They are all good rifles and will fit the bill when SHTF.
EdinDenver
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I've bought a ton of AR platform rifles over the years...I've also sold a few. Here's a few comments....
1) You want something with a 1:7 twist. A lot of cheaper consumer rifles have a 1:9 twist (including Bushmaster).
2) You want M4 feed ramps, again, something the cheaper consumer rifles skimp on.
3) You want a full auto bolt carrier group that has been high pressure tested (HPT) and mag particle inspected (MPT) with a staked gas key.
Then, you need to consider the rifles purpose/ your "mission".
Colt - some Colt rifles use large pin holes so receivers (upper and lower) are not always compatible with just about every other manufacturer out there.
If you want high end - check out what Rainier Arms sells - they don't sell junk (Noveske, Daniel Defense, LMT, etc). Their prices are a bit high, but they specialize in high end stuff (yeah, if you look around, you'll find the same rifles for less) => Rainier Arms - Pursue Your Passion
If you're looking for a workhorse type rifle, check out Bravo Company. They also have higher end stuff and their own brand is very good. I have a pinned 16 inch pencil weight barrel (they pin the flash hider to make NFA requirements around minimum length) upper with their bolt carrier group and their lower. I've shot the heck out of that rifle and it just keeps ticking. => BravoCompanyUSA.com
If you want a good consumer level rifle then as you say, Colt, Ruger, S&W, Springfield (Saint), etc.
If you are bargain hunting, check out Palmetto State Armory => Ammunition, AR15 Parts, Magazines, Bulk Ammo - Palmetto State Armory I have bought a TON of uppers and parts from them (be sure to pay attention to what you're buying especially with the points I mention above). They have basically three level of rifles - junk, middle of the road, and good to go. Here's how it works on their uppers:
CHF - these are barrels made by FN and stamped as such. It's "machine gun steel" and rated to be the most durable. I don't do mag dumps, but I own one of these in an 18" midlength gas rifle with a 1-6x 24 Trijicon and it's an awesome rifle.
Premium - Decent rifle with a few upgrades. I believe these are also FN barrels but not marked as "CHF" or "machine gun steel". I've got a few of these in various chambers - 5.56/.223, .223 Wylde (1:8 Twist), 7.62x39, and .300 Blackout.
Freedom - Budget grade. Still milspec, still decent shooters, but not as good of a quality.
PTAC - Super budget grade....similar to Delton. I've never bought a PTAC rifle or upper and can't comment.
1) You want something with a 1:7 twist. A lot of cheaper consumer rifles have a 1:9 twist (including Bushmaster).
2) You want M4 feed ramps, again, something the cheaper consumer rifles skimp on.
3) You want a full auto bolt carrier group that has been high pressure tested (HPT) and mag particle inspected (MPT) with a staked gas key.
Then, you need to consider the rifles purpose/ your "mission".
Colt - some Colt rifles use large pin holes so receivers (upper and lower) are not always compatible with just about every other manufacturer out there.
If you want high end - check out what Rainier Arms sells - they don't sell junk (Noveske, Daniel Defense, LMT, etc). Their prices are a bit high, but they specialize in high end stuff (yeah, if you look around, you'll find the same rifles for less) => Rainier Arms - Pursue Your Passion
If you're looking for a workhorse type rifle, check out Bravo Company. They also have higher end stuff and their own brand is very good. I have a pinned 16 inch pencil weight barrel (they pin the flash hider to make NFA requirements around minimum length) upper with their bolt carrier group and their lower. I've shot the heck out of that rifle and it just keeps ticking. => BravoCompanyUSA.com
If you want a good consumer level rifle then as you say, Colt, Ruger, S&W, Springfield (Saint), etc.
If you are bargain hunting, check out Palmetto State Armory => Ammunition, AR15 Parts, Magazines, Bulk Ammo - Palmetto State Armory I have bought a TON of uppers and parts from them (be sure to pay attention to what you're buying especially with the points I mention above). They have basically three level of rifles - junk, middle of the road, and good to go. Here's how it works on their uppers:
CHF - these are barrels made by FN and stamped as such. It's "machine gun steel" and rated to be the most durable. I don't do mag dumps, but I own one of these in an 18" midlength gas rifle with a 1-6x 24 Trijicon and it's an awesome rifle.
Premium - Decent rifle with a few upgrades. I believe these are also FN barrels but not marked as "CHF" or "machine gun steel". I've got a few of these in various chambers - 5.56/.223, .223 Wylde (1:8 Twist), 7.62x39, and .300 Blackout.
Freedom - Budget grade. Still milspec, still decent shooters, but not as good of a quality.
PTAC - Super budget grade....similar to Delton. I've never bought a PTAC rifle or upper and can't comment.
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cyphertext
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While I agree with some of your points, there is quite a bit I don't agree...
Twist rate is dependent upon the type of ammo you intend to shoot. If you are going to just shoot the 55 gr FMJ stuff from the local big box store, 1:9 works fine. 1:7 is only needed for the longer, specialty projectiles that many AR owners won't shoot.
Agree that you want the M4 feed ramps... just haven't seen a new production rifle without them in many years.
Semi auto carrier works just fine in a semi auto rifle. Nothing wrong with a quality semi carrier.
Large pin holed receivers are not current production, and haven't been for many years.
Twist rate is dependent upon the type of ammo you intend to shoot. If you are going to just shoot the 55 gr FMJ stuff from the local big box store, 1:9 works fine. 1:7 is only needed for the longer, specialty projectiles that many AR owners won't shoot.
Agree that you want the M4 feed ramps... just haven't seen a new production rifle without them in many years.
Semi auto carrier works just fine in a semi auto rifle. Nothing wrong with a quality semi carrier.
Large pin holed receivers are not current production, and haven't been for many years.
EdinDenver
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With relation to twist rate - have you noticed the cheaper AR rifles are 1:9? Delton is a prime example. Colt "Sporters" in the 90's (even the 6920) were 1:9 when their HBAR rifles (and Delta Elite) rifles of the same vintage stayed at 1:7....and only recently did Brownell's start putting together SP-1 type clones in 1:12. If you want versatility, and want "Mil-Spec" as the OP implied, then you want a 1:7 twist rifle.
There are quite a few rifles out there without M4 Feed ramps. Aero Precision still markets stripped uppers without the feed ramps => AR15 Stripped Upper Receiver, No M4 Feedramps - Anodized Black | Aero Precision | Aero Precision
You never know what you're going to find at a gun show or consignment unless you know what to look for....and the OP was asking what to look for....
You're right, you don't need a full auto bolt carrier group but it doesn't hurt - it's heavier (so it's going to reduce cycle time), it's HPT/MPI inspected (generally), and it's going to have a staked gas key per Mil-Spec (which is what the OP was looking for).
There are quite a few rifles out there without M4 Feed ramps. Aero Precision still markets stripped uppers without the feed ramps => AR15 Stripped Upper Receiver, No M4 Feedramps - Anodized Black | Aero Precision | Aero Precision
You never know what you're going to find at a gun show or consignment unless you know what to look for....and the OP was asking what to look for....
You're right, you don't need a full auto bolt carrier group but it doesn't hurt - it's heavier (so it's going to reduce cycle time), it's HPT/MPI inspected (generally), and it's going to have a staked gas key per Mil-Spec (which is what the OP was looking for).
cyphertext
US Veteran
You can't equate quality of a barrel, or a rifle for that matter, to the twist rate. You are parroting the milspec fan boy line... tell me why you would need the 1:7 twist for versatility. If you aren't shooting tracer rounds or some long, specialty rounds the 1:9 is a good twist rate. 1:7 handles the longer projectiles better at the top of the range, where 1:12 is better for the ligher, varmint type rounds, with 1:9 being basically in the middle.
The OP isn't looking for stripped uppers... I assume that he is looking at complete, new production rifles based on what he asked about.
I don't think the OP implied "mil-spec"... he implied quality. If you have served, you know the two aren't always interchangeable. Considering that he asked about Colt, as well as S&W and Ruger, seems he is looking for value as well.
EdinDenver
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Just because you buy a DPMS stamped lower, doesn't mean you have a DPMS rifle
Just because you buy a Ruger stamped lower, doesn't mean you have a Ruger rifle (in fact I'm waiting on a White Oak Armament upper for a Ruger lower I'm going to use for high power this summer).
The OP stated "Man, it was a lot easier when gunny had the amorer give us what we got. No thought just grab and learn. But now I have to buy and retrain. Where to start?"
My posts aren't meant to say buy a Ford over a Chevy (even if we all know Ford is better), my posts are meant to give him a start with relation to what he's looking for.
If he's happy shooting 55 grain ammo all day long, out of a piece of junk AR that's fine. If he's looking for something that an armorer might provide him, then that's what I want to steer him toward. 1:7 Twist isn't just for tracers - it's going to stabilize a Sierra Match King 69 grain bullet much better and he's even going to be able to use 77 grain pills should he decide to hunt (small) hogs or something similar.
Just because you buy a Ruger stamped lower, doesn't mean you have a Ruger rifle (in fact I'm waiting on a White Oak Armament upper for a Ruger lower I'm going to use for high power this summer).
The OP stated "Man, it was a lot easier when gunny had the amorer give us what we got. No thought just grab and learn. But now I have to buy and retrain. Where to start?"
My posts aren't meant to say buy a Ford over a Chevy (even if we all know Ford is better), my posts are meant to give him a start with relation to what he's looking for.
If he's happy shooting 55 grain ammo all day long, out of a piece of junk AR that's fine. If he's looking for something that an armorer might provide him, then that's what I want to steer him toward. 1:7 Twist isn't just for tracers - it's going to stabilize a Sierra Match King 69 grain bullet much better and he's even going to be able to use 77 grain pills should he decide to hunt (small) hogs or something similar.
Back in the late '90s when I was shooting service rifle matches, I started to feel as if my M1MkII wasn't competitive with the ARs, so I started to look at the AR15A2 HBAR with the 1:7 twist. This became my service rifle for matches, and I earned my Master classification with it. I initially used 69gr SMK @ 200, 77gr SMK @300, and 80gr SMK @600. Eventually I switched to 75gr Hornady HPBTs for 200 & 300yards and 80gr SMK at 600 yards.
My next ARs were Frankenguns I put together using Bushmaster and Aero Precision lowers.
Personally, if I were to "build" another 223 AR, the slowest twist barrel I would consider would be a 1:8. It provides the bullet versatility needed out to about 800yards.
As an aside, after I had pretty much recovered from my accident injuries, I decided that I wanted an M4 style rifle, but couldn't find any already assembled that filled the bill or cost what I wanted to pay. With judicious shopping and utilizing the stock trigger parts from when I upgraded triggers on my target rifles, I was able to put together an 18" 1:8" M4 style AR for just a hair over $500. Assembling the upper and lower receiver assemblies took less than 2 hours. Just something to keep in mind.
My next ARs were Frankenguns I put together using Bushmaster and Aero Precision lowers.
Personally, if I were to "build" another 223 AR, the slowest twist barrel I would consider would be a 1:8. It provides the bullet versatility needed out to about 800yards.
As an aside, after I had pretty much recovered from my accident injuries, I decided that I wanted an M4 style rifle, but couldn't find any already assembled that filled the bill or cost what I wanted to pay. With judicious shopping and utilizing the stock trigger parts from when I upgraded triggers on my target rifles, I was able to put together an 18" 1:8" M4 style AR for just a hair over $500. Assembling the upper and lower receiver assemblies took less than 2 hours. Just something to keep in mind.
cyphertext
US Veteran
I realize that you can swap upper and lowers... have built a couple myself. But that isn't what the OP asked about.
Again, twist does not equal quality. Just because a rilfe does not have a 1:7 twist rate does not make it junk. Many folks shoot 69 grain Match Kings with a 1:9 twist just fine. Hogs don't require 77 grain either... Barnes TSX 55 gr puts them down nicely, as do many other rounds that are less than 77 gr.
Of the 3 that the OP asked about, all 3 will meet the needs of the average civillian shooter, imagined or otherwise. Like I previously posted, if you want the closest to what our military carries today, get the Colt... but I wouldn't feel outgunned or ill prepared to find myself holding a S&W, Ruger, or one of my frankenguns.
rockquarry
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What has been your experience with the Expanse? How did you find it lacking?
JJEH
Member
Have a Ruger AR556 and it's alright. Put some Daniel Defense parts or it, incl. a rear sight. It's pretty accurate but more of a truck gun, I wouldn't want it as a service rifle. If you want a 5.56 I'd save up for a Barrett REC7, BCM, Daniel Defense or higher end S&W.
Rastoff
US Veteran
This is fun. We haven't had a "rabbit hole" thread for some time.
I've never purchased an AR in a fully built condition. I've always pieced them together. Mostly due to expense, but also due to wanting what I want. Even so, I've been around a lot of ARs and seen almost every manufacture in operation.
When it comes to S&W, Colt and Ruger, there is no difference in quality. They are all good, reliable guns. You'll pay more for a Colt, but I don't think you're really getting a better gun. This is debatable of course.
No one here is going to Afghanistan with a gun they're buying as a civilian. Even in the most difficult and demanding training and competitions, all of these guns will perform as intended.
My vote is for the S&W. Why? Because it's probably less expensive and has the best warranty; if you have a problem, they'll fix it and shipping is free.
That's my vote, but I've found that it's more important for a buyer to get the one that speaks to them. So, which is rising to the top for you louisq? By getting that one, there is less chance of buyer's remorse. It will be the one you want to fondle and thereby, will be the one you'll become most familiar with. This will make you a better shooter.
Then buy another one.
I've never purchased an AR in a fully built condition. I've always pieced them together. Mostly due to expense, but also due to wanting what I want. Even so, I've been around a lot of ARs and seen almost every manufacture in operation.
When it comes to S&W, Colt and Ruger, there is no difference in quality. They are all good, reliable guns. You'll pay more for a Colt, but I don't think you're really getting a better gun. This is debatable of course.
No one here is going to Afghanistan with a gun they're buying as a civilian. Even in the most difficult and demanding training and competitions, all of these guns will perform as intended.
My vote is for the S&W. Why? Because it's probably less expensive and has the best warranty; if you have a problem, they'll fix it and shipping is free.
That's my vote, but I've found that it's more important for a buyer to get the one that speaks to them. So, which is rising to the top for you louisq? By getting that one, there is less chance of buyer's remorse. It will be the one you want to fondle and thereby, will be the one you'll become most familiar with. This will make you a better shooter.
Then buy another one.
Daniel Defense, LMT, LWRCI, LaRue, Noveske, BCM, Colt, Ranier, KAC, and a few others (Sig, POF, HK, etc.) are what would be considered 100% milspec 'Professional/Operator Grade' rifles/carbines. Just about all others are 'Homeowner Grade'. They work just fine for all-around casual shooting, but are just not considered hard working 'Top Tier' like the ones mentioned. In response to your OP question.....Colt all day long over the others you are considering. All that being said, I'm a Daniel Defense guy'.
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