S&W service policy issue (and a bit of a rant)

Ziggy2525

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I had posted about the initial stages of this previously in a different thread. Now that it's final, I wanted to create a separate thread for informational purposes (and probably a bit of a rant).

I had an issue with my four year old 642 (I purchased it new). The hammer pin broke, so I sent it back to S&W for service. Based on my ammo purchases, it had 100 rounds of +P (Remington/Speer) and a couple thousands rounds of standard pressure FMJ through it. Half the FMJ was a mix of Federal and Winchester. Half was Armscore.

They evaluated the pistol and said the yoke bolt was worn out and the hammer pin was broken. The pistol was considered non-repairable. They determined those items were considered normal wear and tear, not material defects, and not covered by the lifetime service repair policy. They also told me they consider any foreign ammo, including Armscore, the same as reloads, not as factory ammo. I don't think I'd seen that about foreign ammo in their manual, but I could easily missed it.

When I asked how a pistol rated for continuous +P service could be worn out at 2,000 rounds of standard pressure ammo, the supervisor's response (over the phone) was their pistols can worn out with a single round of standard pressure ammo. I escalated, but they came back and said no. They'd sell me a new pistol at a small discount or I can have the old pistol back.

In the past I've gotten really great service from S&W under the service repair policy. This seems out of character. I wanted to post because I see others posting about how great the S&W Service Repair Policy is. I'm wondering if S&W is changing how they administer that policy.
 
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Sounds like you got the screws put to you and it makes me sad.

On the other hand, it is unlikely to ever affect me directly-- I have no plans (actually less so) to but current S&W products. In the last decade, their only good selling point (IMO) has been their customer support, but if that is eroding also, we're left only with great memories and a cool logo.
 
I agree with “Sevens” that this is a terribly unfortunate situation....

If this gun was produced after 1989 and unless there were obvious signs that it had been tampered with or abused, I see no reason that S&W should not to honor their warranty.

It’s a fact that all mechanical things made by man are subject to failure at some point and that is exactly why the warranty is offered. Unless they can point to clear evidence to prove otherwise, I would ask again (nicely) for them to reconsider their position.

Let us know how the saga continues.
 
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Odd that S&W would talk about a "yoke bolt". Maybe yoke screw but I have never heard of a yoke "bolt" on a S&W revolver. I don't understand how a worn yoke screw and a broken hammer pin would make it "non-repairable" . Get it back and find someone with a bit of skill.
 
Point #1 -- Not to question the original poster's account, but let's face it -- we have only his account, and nothing of S&W's side. Can a hammer pin break and a "yoke bolt" wear out in just 2000 rounds? I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing a service life stated for a 642. I do recall that when S&W's first unsuccessful, utterly pathetic .380 came out they made it clear that 2000 rounds was about as far as it would go.

Point #2 -- To the original poster, assuming you are giving us a complete and honest report, I feel your pain. You may well have a legitimate gripe that S&W should address. Assuming that you do -- what can we do about it? My suggestion would be to make further enquiries at S&W by phone or, preferably, letter and find someone who will listen to your plight. Nobody there is out to screw you, or themselves, by ignoring a real problem -- but being human beings, I am sure there is an employee or two there who may not be completely on the ball when it comes to customer service.
 
Point #1 -- Not to question the original poster's account, but let's face it -- we have only his account, and nothing of S&W's side. Can a hammer pin break and a "yoke bolt" wear out in just 2000 rounds? I don't know. I don't recall ever seeing a service life stated for a 642. I do recall that when S&W's first unsuccessful, utterly pathetic .380 came out they made it clear that 2000 rounds was about as far as it would go.

Point #2 -- To the original poster, assuming you are giving us a complete and honest report, I feel your pain. You may well have a legitimate gripe that S&W should address. Assuming that you do -- what can we do about it? My suggestion would be to make further enquiries at S&W by phone or, preferably, letter and find someone who will listen to your plight. Nobody there is out to screw you, or themselves, by ignoring a real problem -- but being human beings, I am sure there is an employee or two there who may not be completely on the ball when it comes to customer service.

It's an honest presentation of the facts. You can choose to believe them, be skeptical, or completely discount them.

A couple points in response to yours...

#1 When I sent the pistol in, I told them the 642 had a couple thousands rounds through it and specifically asked if that was close to the service life. I was told "no way, not even close."

#2 Like I mentioned in the original post...
I wanted to post because I see others posting about how great the S&W Service Repair Policy is. I'm wondering if S&W is changing how they administer that policy.
Others that are considering purchasing an S&W firearm based on perceptions about S&W's Lifetime Service Repair Policy (which is different than the actual 1 year warranty), may be able to use my information as a data point in making their decision.

My experience probably won't stop me from purchasing another S&W, but I'll definitely have a different view of the value I'm getting for the $$.
 
I had a similar issue one with a 200.00 fishing reel, so I went over the head of customer service and sent a letter to the parent company. Not long after that, my new reel showed up.

The point is, try going over the heads of S&W.

What concerns me most, if I read the OP correctly, it is possible to wear out a gun from a single standard pressure round? What's up with that statement? Are they saying if the gun wears out in 1 round, tough luck?

Obviously you need to be cool headed, but get to somebody that cares. They have a lot of issues there. sales are off by 25%, and profit is down by 75%.

No gun should wear out under the conditions you stated..

Maybe i will put the thought of a 617 on hold
 
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What concerns me most, if I read the OP correctly, it is possible to wear out a gun from a single standard pressure round? What's up with that statement? Are they saying if the gun wears out in 1 round, tough luck?
...

I'm the OP. Just to make sure I'm being as clear and fair to S&W as possible, the Customer Service supervisor told me they evaluate two criteria for defects in material and workmanship.

#1 - Is there a metallurgical issue with your specific pistol.

#2 - Are there other pistols in the same manufacturing lot as yours that have the exact same failure as yours.

If the answer to both of those questions is no, then he said it's considered normal wear and tear and not covered by the lifetime service repair policy, whether the pistol has been fired one time or 100,000 times.

To me that doesn't seem to account for normal variations in manufacturing processes.
 
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S&W Warranty

I'm the OP. Just to make sure I'm being as clear and fair to S&W as possible, the Customer Service supervisor told me they evaluate two criteria for defects in material and workmanship.

#1 - Is there a metallurgical issue with your specific pistol.

#2 - Are there other pistols in the same manufacturing lot as yours that have the exact same failure as yours.

If the answer to both of those questions is no, then he said it's considered normal wear and tear and not covered by the lifetime service repair policy, whether the pistol has been fired one time or 100,000 times.

To me that doesn't seem to account for normal variations in manufacturing processes.

Sounds like CS was looking for a way to deny your claim, kind of like an insurance company. Like others this does run contrary to my experience with S&W so I’d keep trying. Pls let us know how it goes.
 
What's a yoke bolt?
Not my terminology, this is what the guy at S&W told me.

The cylinder is connected to the yoke with the ejector. The pin on the other end of the yoke that slides into the frame is the yoke bolt (not my terms). S&W says I elongated either the bolt or the bolt hole by opening and closing the cylinder too many times or too forcefully.

I took the pistol to the range and shot it. I haven’t figured out a way to reload without opening and closing the cylinder. I wasn’t slamming it open and closed.
 
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That pretty much sucks if you ask me. To me, that is saying that their concealed carry revolvers are junk if you can wear them out with a couple of thousand rounds of normal ammo. And tells me to buy an equivalent weapon from the competition, Ruger, Colt or Kimber.

I AGREE muddocktor. I AM TOTALLY DONE WITH PURCHASING ANY NEW S&W PRODUCTS....

IN THE WORDS OF B.B. KING----"THE THRILL IS GONE"......
 
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Just read that S&W's sales (profits) are way down, as the industry as a whole.
What the OP experienced may be the company tightening up and holding warranty work to "the letter of the law" or whatever their warranty equivalent is.
 
I AGREE muddocktor. I AM TOTALLY DONE WITH PURCHASING ANY NEW S&W PRODUCTS....

IN THE WORDS OF B.B. KING----"THE THRILL IS GONE"......

Just to be clear, I am NOT advocating for people to stop buying new S&W firearms. I like my 640. I like my Shields. I have another 642 that’s been dead nuts reliable.

I am saying one of the value added features of purchasing a new S&W firearm has been the lifetime service repair policy. Even though that policy still exists and the wording of that policy is the same, how it’s being administered appears to be changing for the worse. That impacts the value proposition when considering S&W.
 
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... I don't understand how... a broken hammer pin would make it "non-repairable" ....
On a steel frame gun replacing a hammer stud is very doable. Alloy frame guns are a different kind animal, especially on a gun with such a low price point to begin with.

One thing you should never do is dry fire a Smith revolver with the sideplate off. Very hard on the studs. The sideplate supports the studs' free ends. When it's removed the studs are cantilevered and very weak.
 
I have to date sent in 2 semi auto pistols and one revolver back to S&W. one for repair and the other two for non warranty work and although I can't speak for others experience I can only say with what I experienced.

All my contact with S&W over the phone they have been very polite & informative. They even returned my phone calls on multiple occasions.

The last pistol I sent in, a model 10 from 1985, they refinished it inside & out to like brand new condition. Even threw on a new set of wood grips at no extra charge.

I will add, with a couple emails I got them to send me, free of charge not one but 2 brand new RSA for my M&P 9mm and a set of replacement rubber grips for my 617.

I'm not saying that I'm not buying the OP's story, all I'm saying is that everytime I had any dealings with S&W, they were very polite & professional... just sayin'.
 
It sounds to me like they don't want to cover it because this is "normal wear and tear" and that there is no minimum number of rounds to wear out those parts. I don't know why they didn't just tell you that, but that's my interpretation.

Even when a product says "lifetime warranty" I take it as a given that if I want it fixed at the factory, I need to spot the defect sooner than later. If I had a gun that worked fine for four years and then a part wears out, I'd consider it my responsibility to get it fixed.
 
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