S&W triple lock target 455 webley?

[nicfarion]

So while perusing the last nearby handgun auction that happened in the summer of 2022 I saw this labelled as a mk2 hand ejector in 455. I took a closer and realized, uhhhh this a target triple lock, needless to say I bought it haha. Seeing a triple lock is rare enough yet a target model, especially in Canada chances are slim. However what to me is unique is that this is one is chambered in 455 webley! All triple lock targets I have seen have been 44 only. I just received it a few days ago and did a full inspection and apart from what looks like holster wear by the muzzle and a few random spots on the gun it is amazing shape. And it feels nice and tight which to me it seems like he’s been barely fired or lightly at most in my opinion. The letter that came with it is unique as well, and yes I’m aware they have it written 2nd model lol. I know I can’t judge provenance by a letter like this however I have ordered a letter from smith and Wesson historical foundation on it and I will update when it comes as to where and when it was shipped. I realize the chambering is unique and I diligently went over the gun and to me I can’t see anything that would indicate it being not factory smith and Wesson, any expert opinions would be greatly appreciated though! No rework star, no signs of a home gunsmith rear sight milling, not anything that at least to me indicates a aftermarket job. All serial numbers are matching, (cylinder, bottom of frame and in the ejector rod housing on the underside of the barrel) to serial number 12755. Any thoughts and opinions on it would be greatly appreciated and like I said can’t give any info on letter yet as I am still waiting but to me it’s a genuine piece and makes a great addition to my “war horse” British military triple lock. Thanks for looking everyone and hope you enjoyed this unique gun as much as me!

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[nicfarion]

Sorry AND triple lock target with a lanyard ring?? Maybe indicating military special order? Not too sure but neat as heck.


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[22hipower]

Looks like a great find. I like the military connection too. Looks great except for the rust/corrosion at the front sight and end of the barrel; wonder if it was stored in a holster. Anyway, great find and I hope to hear more about its history and configuration.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[nicfarion]

Looks like a great find. I like the military connection too. Looks great except for the rust/corrosion at the front sight and end of the barrel; wonder if it was stored in a holster. Anyway, great find and I hope to hear more about its history and configuration.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Thanks Jeff! Ya that’s the only unfortunate part but I believe ur right with the holster thought. Only thing that makes sense to me. Will keep this thread updated when letter arrives. Hopefully soon. I ordered it a while ago haha. [emoji106]


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[glowe]

My not so wild guess is that it is commercial or Canada gun without any markings and originally shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Co. in St. Louis, MO on December 29, 1917! The SWCA database shows many 455s being shipped to this location on the same date. There were 9 in the database in the 12,7XX to 12,9XX shipped and 8 shipped in the 14,9XX to 15,1XX. Some of these shipped to Shapleigh had lanyard rings, but none were listed as target revolvers. Perhaps someone will know where they went after leaving Shapleighs? It seems like they were going the wrong direction if headed for Europe, but maybe they went to Canada??

The problem is that these serial numbers were only found in the 2nd Model and none of those would have had barrel shrouds. Look inside the barrel shroud for a serial number. Open the cylinder and you will find a number in the slot where the extractor rod was. The 1st Model serial number range was 1 - 5,000.

 

[nicfarion]

S&W triple lock target 455 webley?

My not so wild guess is that it is commercial or Canada gun without any markings and originally shipped to Shapleigh Hardware Co. in St. Louis, MO on December 29, 1917! The SWCA database shows many 455s being shipped to this location on the same date. There were 9 in the database in the 12,7XX to 12,9XX shipped and 8 shipped in the 14,9XX to 15,1XX. Some of these shipped to Shapleigh had lanyard rings, but none were listed as target revolvers. Perhaps someone will know where they went after leaving Shapleighs? It seems like they were going the wrong direction if headed for Europe, but maybe they went to Canada??

The problem is that these serial numbers were only found in the 2nd Model and none of those would have had barrel shrouds. Look inside the barrel shroud for a serial number. Open the cylinder and you will find a number in the slot where the extractor rod was. The 1st Model serial number range was 1 - 5,000.

Ya the serial number is 12755 and is in all 3 places like I said. Including the barrel shroud area. All matching. And ya it would put it in that first shipment you speak of then possibly.


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[Timb1]

I believe the sights have been added. The front sight base would not have been split and it would have been a single screw rear sight.

With that said still a great find!

 

[nicfarion]

I believe the sights have been added. The front sight base would not have been split and it would have been a single screw rear sight.

With that said still a great find!

Ah okay fair that makes sense. Ya I still like it a lot. I’ll take it out and shoot it haha[emoji106]


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[wordsmith]

I agree with Timb1, the sights are almost certainly later alterations. A look at the markings on the left grip frame, along with a factory letter, are definitely in order.

Regardless, it is a manifestly cool gun!
David

 

[nicfarion]

I agree with Timb1, the sights are almost certainly later alterations. A look at the markings on the left grip frame, along with a factory letter, are definitely in order.

Regardless, it is a manifestly cool gun!
David

Left and right grip frames. Let me know if ya see anything standout!

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[handejector]

It is probably one of the 455 TLs built in late 1916 when the Factory found enough parts to build quite a few. For some reason, they numbered them in the 44 HE serial number range.
As Tim pointed out, that type rear sight did not exist till late 1931.
You could pull the rear sight if you are comfortable doing so and see if it is numbered to the gun and if the sight slot is blued or in the white. I won't be surprised if it is in the white because the gun does not appear to be reblued.

 

[nicfarion]

It is probably one of the 455 TLs built in late 1916 when the Factory found enough parts to build quite a few. For some reason, they numbered them in the 44 HE serial number range.
As Tim pointed out, that type rear sight did not exist till late 1931.
You could pull the rear sight if you are comfortable doing so and see if it is numbered to the gun and if the sight slot is blued or in the white. I won't be surprised if it is in the white because the gun does not appear to be reblued.

Ah okay and ya I t would just be the two screws to remove it right? The 3rd would be for the height adjustment? Or all 3 come out?


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[handejector]

Only the front screw has to be removed. Loosen the two rear screws slightly and slide the sight to the rear slightly.

 

[handejector]

AND-
the screws get glued tight with dried oil that has been there 80-100 years, so some soaking with penetrating oil might be needed. If you look between the rear end of the barrel and the frame, you can see the bottom end of the front screw. That's a good place for penetrating oil.

 

[StrawHat]

The Big Gorilla has some great advice there. I can not tell rear sights apart but from that era, they were numbered to the revolver.

I have a standard 455 New Century. It has some issues but it brings me a lot of enjoyment.

Kevin

 

[rct269]

As noted, the rear sight came along a good bit after the gun. The good news is it's the first one from S&W that absolutely, positively won't shoot loose (when properly adjusted and locked). (The instructions for that will be found in the instructions for any S&W target grade gun from the early 30's on to WWII (not counting the 22/40).

As an aside, this sight is the best one S&W ever made for my money. In addition to the positive locking feature, it's also infinitely adjustable----none of this "one click" moves the point of impact whatever it is 1/4"-1/2" at such and such range business with the later "micrometer" sights. This one moves point of impact 1" for one full turn of an adjusting screw for each 10 yards of range-----just the thing for driving nails, lighting matches, blowing out candles----or murdering Bumble Bees.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[rct269]

Ah okay and ya I t would just be the two screws to remove it right? The 3rd would be for the height adjustment? Or all 3 come out?


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This sight, commonly known as the "two screw" is adjusted for elevation in two steps. The first is to get close with the aft screw, and make the final adjustment with the screw immediately in front of the aft screw. At that point, turn the aft screw counterclockwise as far as it goes. You're done----the sight is set AND locked (for elevation). The windage setting/locking quite obviously is accomplished with the two opposing screws----same as any other pre-war target sight.

If you'll think about what you've done, the screw immediately in front of the aft screw is pushing against the frame; and the aft screw is pulling against the frame (by way of a flange nut---with the flange riding in a slot milled into the frame). This push/pull arrangement locks the sight in place quite simply because the frame is not going to move. Now, this push/pull arrangement presupposes the sight was installed by the factory-------or some other entity that knew what they were doing----and milled the slot for the nut flange---and used the flange nut. I hope---and suspect the sight was installed by the factory---never mind the absence of any of the typical markings confirming same.

Ralph Tremaine

And Lee's advice---to move the sight assembly slightly to the rear, is to move the flange out of its slot. If the sight simply comes off after removal of the front screw, we have a whole new ball game---and an unfortunate one at that!!

 

[nicfarion]

So after some time I’ve gingerly removed the site and this is what lies below. No serial number and looks like something don’t after the gun was made. Seems to be done very well at least especially the back milling. Whether it was done at the factory or not I do not know.

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[6string]

Looks like the work was really well done! Although not "factory original", I think it's still of important historical value, as well as enhanced "shootability".
It would be worth looking into, if possible, any type of target shooting activities of the previous owner, Mr. Greening.
I know from having lived in that area of Ontario many years ago, that there were a lot of small "rifle & revolver" clubs. Many were sportsman's clubs, but quite a few were operated by various companies as an activity for employees. They filled an important role of helping people get their handgun permits.

By the way, I used to regularly go to the the gun shows throughout Ontario back in the 1980s. These were all operated by small gun collector clubs. There were good ones in Ajax, Ancaster, Oshawa, Hamilton, and a very old one in Toronto.
If you are familiar with the old FAC laws and restricted weapons permits needed for a handgun, there were two basic ways to qualify:
1) Belong to a shooting club
2) Belong to a gun collectors club

Anyhow, I clearly remember seeing target sighted .455s at the shows, be they S&W, Colt, or Webley & Scott.
I'm sure yours has an interesting place in the history of the distinct local shooting scene.

 

[mrcvs]

The channel for the rear sight does not contain bluing. If the work was factory, it would be blued. The underside of the rear sight is more crudely milled than others I have seen. And it lacks a serial number. For these three reasons, it can be proved the work was not factory. But, very well done, nonetheless.

I would also expect the interface between the sight and the frame to be less perceptible if the work was factory.