"Safe" Apartment Ammunition

Yes! Your concerns are well-founded, and I am happy you are considering your neighbors. Truly.

BTW, note you are a new Forum member. Please keep posting...lots to be learned here...and that's NOT just for the new folks. Take care.

Be safe.

Picked up the 360 Talo last week (for concealed carry, got some .38 +P Hornady Critical Defense for it) and am very happy with it!

I've thought about using .410 out of a revolver for home defense, alotta different opinions on that though. Personally, I think 000 buck "designer" loads are adequate, I've seen 12" to 18" of penetration with them and creating four wound tracks at the same time is part of the equation. Definitely an intriguing option...
 
I didn't read all of the reply's so excuse me if this has been covered.
I currently rent a crappy little studio apt and even if I wanted to keep a 12 guage, regardless of the effectiveness, there just plain isn't any room to wield it. So I keep my .45 loaded with the same hollowpoints as I use for carry/car/wherever else I may be. Penetration of walls is an acceptable risk that I'm willing to take. My wife keeps HydraShocks in her M60 at our house. I'm not concerned about penetration. Quite frankly her survival means more to me. I have serious reservations about frag ammo... I don't trust it for cloth penetration, regardless of what tests show.
 
I believe the air marshals used them in the past and supposedly they won't shoot through an airplane fuselage or overpenetrate through an assailants head.

I'm also concerned with having not enough penetration if I happen to hit an attacker in the arm (i.e. Miami Shootout).

Do a search on Glasers here, this has been dicussed many times.

1. Prefragmented ammo was NEVER issued to air marshalls.

2. Prefragmented ammo will not penetrate the arm and then continue intact to penetrate the body to sufficient depth to cause lethal injury.
 
Do a search on Glasers here, this has been dicussed many times.

1. Prefragmented ammo was NEVER issued to air marshalls.

2. Prefragmented ammo will not penetrate the arm and then continue intact to penetrate the body to sufficient depth to cause lethal injury.

Yeah i'm starting to steer away from prefragged ammo, not enough emperical evidence. I was thinking 45 colt would penetrate enough but I can't find any good tests. I think I'm gonna go with JHPs in my firearms, FMJ penetrates more if im not mistaken.
 
Yeah, I'm 100% now. This article shows 2-6" of penetration using .45acp Magsafe. Would maybe look into the Glaser but 1)Took a concealed weapons class today and instructor said the plastic tip hardens after awhile, making it not fragment 2) Have read actual cases of LEOs using .357 and .38 Glasers and having bad results, not to mention the air marshall myth...

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm

I'm going with Hornady Critical Defense +P JHP in .38,.357,and .45 long colt
 
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I'm going with Hornady Critical Defense +P JHP in .38,.357,and .45 long colt

I'd like to try some but so far haven't found it out here. There isn't **** in Reno besides some overpriced gimmic ammo that I can't remember the name of... $60 for 20 rounds. For my 442 that might be ok; but I usually put at least 150 rounds through my .45 before I'm comfortable that it'll feed right. And I'd like to have the same type for both; for what reason I'm not sure :confused:
 
The NRA did an article on the Critical Defense and whatever new round Winchester came up with earlier this year. The design intent on the Critical Defense was not to exceed 10 inches of penetration. While that is certainly sufficient for an unobstructed thorax hit, I'm not entirely comfortable with that limitation absent extensive testing if we're talking intermediate barriers.

Your concerns may vary.

Frankly, unless your needs require laminated glass/auto bodywork penetration, just about any major manufacturers JHP should work fine if you put it in a vital area. Your emphasis should be on practice so you don't miss the target rather than trying to find a round that isn't going to pass through drywall.
 
The likelihood of anybody shot with Glasers at normal gunfight distances continuing the fight is about as far-fetched as the likelihood of an errant bullet passing through the wall and striking an innocent.

If you doubt this, buy a cheap roast. Wrap it in denim, and shoot it at 8 feet. Then extrapolate what it would have done to somebody's face, or their elbow, or their chest.

Then shoot that same roast 4 more times, and tell us what you think.

The roast... is toast.
 
Someone shot a roast with a .44 mag Glaser in front of Dr. Fackler once and asked him how long someone could survive such a wound. He replied that it would be about four days before infection set it.

There is no free lunch. Humans are like roaches. They are hard to kill and adapt themeselves to any environment. They can limp around with limbs gone, have part of the brain destoryed, lose half their blood... There's a piece of the brain about the size of a dime, the old "lizard core" that you have to destroy to shut someone down instantly. Otherwise you have to wait for them to run out of blood, and that can take a while.

Any bullet that will penetrate deeply enough in a human being to reach and damage vital structures will go through walls.

The closest thing to a "magic" solution in terms of terminal effectiveness (or whatever label one wishes to give it) is a 5.56mm carbine using light JHP ammunition. Essentially varmint loads. That's it. (Or you can use the bayonet I suppose.)

Your local Walmart will happily sell you a Mini14 for around 600 dollars if you can't afford, don't want, or don't like an AR clone. They'll sell you some varmint loads too. But you'll have to order the 20 or 30 rd mags, they don't carry those. Yet.

For a .357 fired indoors I'd opt for the old 158gr LSWCHP +P offerings, preferably the Remington. Less flash, less noise, decent results.

There's a reason behind the 12" min gelatin standard, but what many people forget is that the original IWBA standard was 18" or MORE of penetration, and that 12" in the min number and they forget the "or MORE" part of things.

Me? I was a slumlord. People had every reason to choose my apartment.

Best thing to do is just purchase whatever quality JHP that is reasonably heavy in weight for a given caliber that you can afford to use. Then arrange to go out and kill a hog somewhere, preferably using a knife (hence the term pig sticker). There is a lot of blood and squealing that way and it helps get a person used to it. (When my wife was in field med, they had to work on pigs that had been shot to help prepare for human casualties.) If you can't arrange for a hog, get a rabbit and a claw hammer. It'll taste like chicken afterwards when you fry it up. Now you've learned where meat comes from and not to be squeamish.
 
A shotgun with #2 shot will work just fine.
Personally, I would move.

Moving isn't always an option. Besides, it doesn't really solve things unless you believe that a 'good' neighborhood won't have any break-ins. I live in a less-than ideal area simply because my real residence is 3k miles away. This is a temporary place that I pray to get away from soon. But in the mean time I'll take my .45 JPH and .38+p JHP, regardless of possible penetration through walls. Until I can find a way to get the realistic adrenalin rush while needing to shoot then I'll be skeptical of any gimmic ammo. Hell, I'll be skeptical about myself, regardless of how much I practice.
 
The likelihood of anybody shot with Glasers at normal gunfight distances continuing the fight is about as far-fetched as the likelihood of an errant bullet passing through the wall and striking an innocent.

I've gotta admit that several of the various aggressive critters I shot with Glasers (and hit in vital areas) didn't read the ads for Glaser and therefore didn't know they were supposed to do a double back flip and instantly cease and desist, but the fact remains that they didn't.

I also had one round break up on a canine tooth of a charging large mutt and fail to sever the spine.

I'm not the only one to have experienced a less than wonderous reaction to use of the round. It's your gunfight, do what you wish. Just don't say you weren't warned.
 
I've gotta admit that several of the various aggressive critters I shot with Glasers (and hit in vital areas) didn't read the ads for Glaser and therefore didn't know they were supposed to do a double back flip and instantly cease and desist, but the fact remains that they didn't.

I also had one round break up on a canine tooth of a charging large mutt and fail to sever the spine.

I'm not the only one to have experienced a less than wonderous reaction to use of the round. It's your gunfight, do what you wish. Just don't say you weren't warned.

You obviously don't watch the videos of a 1000lb whatever being taken down by a .32 fragmentation ammo (1 shot no less!!). Shame on you.
Was Glaser the first fragmentation ammo to come out? Or just the first that had enough money for serious advertising? Either way makes no difference to me. I'll stick with JHP and hope it does the job if ever needed.
 
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