"Safe" Apartment Ammunition

[S&W360Talo357]

Trying to figure out what the best ammo to use for apartment defense is for my .357/38 and .45lc revolvers. I've been looking at prefragmented and am pretty impressed with the Glaser Safety Slug (Silver tip). I believe the air marshals used them in the past and supposedly they won't shoot through an airplane fuselage or overpenetrate through an assailants head. I believe they now use .357s with hallowpoints. Magsafe also makes prefragmented ammo.

My main concern is shooting through 4-5 layers of drywall or worst case through two front doors . The walls in my apartment are relatively thick compared to other ones I have lived in. I'm also concerned with having not enough penetration if I happen to hit an attacker in the arm (i.e. Miami Shootout).

Do you believe Glasers are an adequate/"safe" round? Anyone know of any sites that have tests using drywall with different rounds?

 

[off road]

Looks like overpenetration of hollow points may be the norm....rather than the exception in the real world: http://www.brassfetcher.com/40S&W JHP performance against Bone Simulant and Ballistic Gelatin.pdf

Given that, something that you know will never overpenetrate, is a refreshing change! As a civilian, I'm not going to be engaging in a running gunfight around vehicles, like a LEO might. So, everywhere (not just at home!) the primary threat is humans, I load Glaser Silvers. When the threat is some animal + humans, then I will load hollow points or hardcast in cat/bear country.

If you do a search, you will find some pros and cons about Glasers. I use to work for the medical examiner of a large populous county. I feel that the FBI standards for penetration, are way off for civilians (who aren't going to be shooing up perps in vehicles). Personally, I will choose Glasers, unless there is a shotgun in my hand!

 

[The Big D]

In all seriousness, is there a particular reason you think bad guys would choose your apartment over the others in your building to invade/attack? Are your neighbors similarly worried?

Be safe.

 

[Kanewpadle]

In all seriousness, is there a particular reason you think bad guys would choose your apartment over the others in your building to invade/attack? Are your neighbors similarly worried?

Be safe.

In all seriousness, maybe the man wants to make a responsible decision. Do you have a crystal ball? Can we borrow it.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Trying to figure out what the best ammo to use for apartment defense is for my .357/38 and .45lc revolvers. I've been looking at prefragmented and am pretty impressed with the Glaser Safety Slug (Silver tip). I believe the air marshals used them in the past and supposedly they won't shoot through an airplane fuselage or overpenetrate through an assailants head. I believe they now use .357s with hallowpoints. Magsafe also makes prefragmented ammo.

My main concern is shooting through 4-5 layers of drywall or worst case through two front doors . The walls in my apartment are relatively thick compared to other ones I have lived in. I'm also concerned with having not enough penetration if I happen to hit an attacker in the arm (i.e. Miami Shootout).

Do you believe Glasers are an adequate/"safe" round? Anyone know of any sites that have tests using drywall with different rounds?

I wouldn't carry Glaser or Magsafe on the street, but they are a good option for apartment use. Also look into Corbon Powrball and Federal EFMJ.

 

[The Big D]

In all seriousness, I think most home invaders/attackers don't consider dwellings where they have to run the steps or take an elevator...whilst passing other apartments...to and fro their dastardly deeds.

Be safe.

PS: How do you know the OP is a "man." Can I borrow your crystal ball?

PPS:

I've lived in apartments; had the same ammo in my gun as I did whilst on duty/going about my business. Doubt that few (if anyone) anyone "reloads" upon arriving home. I surely did not.

In all seriousness, maybe the man wants to make a responsible decision. Do you have a crystal ball? Can we borrow it.

 

[S&W360Talo357]

In all seriousness, is there a particular reason you think bad guys would choose your apartment over the others in your building to invade/attack? Are your neighbors similarly worried?

Be safe.

Look at the crime statistics for apartments around the University of Central Florida. I know a ridiculous amount of people that have been robbed/injured/killed, and friend's neighbors and friend's friends

Go here: http://www.orlandosentinel2.com/data/crime/. Under the "All Zips" section select 32826 - UCF area.

Even if the crime rate wasn't so high around here I'd still have a firearm for the worst case scenario because I have a right to. Better safe than sorry...

Thank you for the help!!!!

 

[dunndealin]

I am living with my mom and sister right now and besides my night stand pistol, my main HD gun is an 870 20gauge(so the girlfriend can shoot it with confidence) it is stoked with 3" #2 heavy Turkey loads specifically for the over penetration factor...
I shot this stuff through 2 sheets of 5/8" Drywall with 3.5" air gap inbetween(2"x4" to act as internal wall of house) from 15feet, I hung a 3'x4' poster on the other side roughly 5-7 feet past the make shift wall and when i shot the wall none of the pellets penetrated the poster on the other side. i did this with 5 shots in 5 areas of the dry wall and the results were all the same. I did the same thing with 2-3/4" OObuckshot and it blew the poster to smitherines... By no means was this a scientific test but i am satisifed with the fact that if i have to shoot at someone in my house the #2 Turkey load is a better choice "for me"... At 10-20ft this stuff is nasty!

With that said i refuse to shoot shot ammo or fragmenting ammo out of my handguns for defense because i am just not convinced and that stuff is stupid expensive!

 

[S&W360Talo357]

I am living with my mom and sister right now and besides my night stand pistol, my main HD gun is an 870 20gauge(so the girlfriend can shoot it with confidence) it is stoked with 3" #2 heavy Turkey loads specifically for the over penetration factor...
I shot this stuff through 2 sheets of 5/8" Drywall with 3.5" air gap inbetween(2"x4" to act as internal wall of house) from 15feet, I hung a 3'x4' poster on the other side roughly 5-7 feet past the make shift wall and when i shot the wall none of the pellets penetrated the poster on the other side. i did this with 5 shots in 5 areas of the dry wall and the results were all the same. I did the same thing with 2-3/4" OObuckshot and it blew the poster to smitherines... By no means was this a scientific test but i am satisifed with the fact that if i have to shoot at someone in my house the #2 Turkey load is a better choice "for me"... At 10-20ft this stuff is nasty!

With that said i refuse to shoot shot ammo or fragmenting ammo out of my handguns for defense because i am just not convinced and that stuff is stupid expensive!

First on my list of next gun to get. I have heard the same thing about 20 gauge with bird shot (some people say with 12 gauge also, but I've read about an incident where a neighbor shot through his/her wall with birdshot (not sure what #) and injured his neighbor on the other side, 12 gauge. I remember seeing something on TV when I was younger that talked about a case where someone shot a guy in a store with 12gauge (i think) birdshot and killed him.

 

[Kanewpadle]

In all seriousness, I think most home invaders/attackers don't consider dwellings where they have to run the steps or take an elevator...whilst passing other apartments...to and fro their dastardly deeds.

Be safe.

PS: How do you know the OP is a "man." Can I borrow your crystal ball?

PPS:

I've lived in apartments; had the same ammo in my gun as I did whilst on duty/going about my business. Doubt that few (if anyone) anyone "reloads" upon arriving home. I surely did not.

You never know big D. I don't plan around statistics or what I "think" may or may not happen.

To survive, one must be prepared and aware at all times. Adaptability increases survivability.

 

[Kanewpadle]

First on my list of next gun to get. I have heard the same thing about 20 gauge with bird shot (some people say with 12 gauge also, but I've read about an incident where a neighbor shot through his/her wall with birdshot (not sure what #) and injured his neighbor on the other side, 12 gauge. I remember seeing something on TV when I was younger that talked about a case where someone shot a guy in a store with 12gauge (i think) birdshot and killed him.

I'm no expert on shot guns. But people I know and trust would never use bird shot on people.

What ever you choose to use in your apartment, have a plan. Know where your fields of fire should be. Know where your solid backstops are if any.

The key to home security is to not be caught by surprise. Secure your home with additional locks or other items to give yourself time to prepare.

For the time being, I also live in an apartment. The front door is down the hallway from the bedroom. They have to come down the hall to reach me. At the other end of the hall is a fireplace. Perfect backstop for me.

 

[The Big D]

Truer words have never been spoken, Kanewpadle.

I am just a bit frustrated (not speaking of the OP, you, or anyone else in particular here) when folks consider special needs for trail guns, backyard guns, "people" ammo, animal ammo, car guns, truck guns, backup guns, and so on and so forth.

I was on the clock in 46 states and that work took me some places I wouldn't have gone had they not paid me. I made do with a .38 M10 or M60 and an 870 about the first 16 years and then a 9mm H&K P7 M8/M13 (with an occasional 870) thereafter.

To the point, my work was indoors, outdoors, urban, suburban, and in some extraordinarily rural/unsettled/wilderness/open space areas. I cannot recall a time when I changed ammo based on my assignment or in what locale I found myself. (I did, though, carry both slugs and #4 for the 870.)

Rant off; make it a great day everyone.

Be safe.

You never know big D. I don't plan around statistics or what I "think" may or may not happen.

To survive, one must be prepared and aware at all times. Adaptability increases survivability.

 

[S&W360Talo357]

Truer words have never been spoken, Kanewpadle.

I am just a bit frustrated (not speaking of the OP, you, or anyone else in particular here) when folks consider special needs for trail guns, backyard guns, "people" ammo, animal ammo, car guns, truck guns, backup guns, and so on and so forth.

I was on the clock in 46 states and that work took me some places I wouldn't have gone had they not paid me. I made do with a .38 M10 or M60 and an 870 about the first 16 years and then a 9mm H&K P7 M8/M13 (with an occasional 870) thereafter.

To the point, my work was indoors, outdoors, urban, suburban, and in some extraordinarily rural/unsettled/wilderness/open space areas. I cannot recall a time when I changed ammo based on my assignment or in what locale I found myself. (I did, though, carry both slugs and #4 for the 870.)

Rant off; make it a great day everyone.

Be safe.

I see your point, I don't like the idea of having to use new fangled prefrag ammo. But I am responsible for every bullet I fire, and if I miss (average 4/5 miss in defense situations I believe) I could be sued/injure/kill my neighbor. I've decided what the best shooting lanes/backstops in my apartment will be and firing in those lanes I think I could probably use a .38 hollow point and not overpenetrate to the neighbor's apartment. I'm not sure though

 

[Road Rat]

Spend a few minutes looking over this site where the man actually shoots various rounds are sheet rock, etc.

The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing

 

[S&W360Talo357]

Thank you for the suggestions!

Truer words have never been spoken, Kanewpadle.

I am just a bit frustrated (not speaking of the OP, you, or anyone else in particular here) when folks consider special needs for trail guns, backyard guns, "people" ammo, animal ammo, car guns, truck guns, backup guns, and so on and so forth.

I was on the clock in 46 states and that work took me some places I wouldn't have gone had they not paid me. I made do with a .38 M10 or M60 and an 870 about the first 16 years and then a 9mm H&K P7 M8/M13 (with an occasional 870) thereafter.

To the point, my work was indoors, outdoors, urban, suburban, and in some extraordinarily rural/unsettled/wilderness/open space areas. I cannot recall a time when I changed ammo based on my assignment or in what locale I found myself. (I did, though, carry both slugs and #4 for the 870.)

Rant off; make it a great day everyone.

Be safe.

U.S. Marines Ammo Penetration Test: U.S. Marines Ammo penetration tests - YouTube
I wouldn't want to use an M240g in my apartment

 

[old bear]

I've lived in apartments; had the same ammo in my gun as I did whilst on duty/going about my business. Doubt that few (if anyone) anyone "reloads" upon arriving home. I surely did not.

My carry loads are 158Gr. gas check SWC ahead of 14.5 grains. of Herco 2400. That's 1/2 a grain less than Mr. Keith developed for the original .357 Magnum round. When I get home my carry revolver gets put away, and if needed I have my home Self-defense revolvers around the house. All of these are loaded with 125Gr. Golden Sabers.
So some of do change out our carry ammo.

 

[27145]

Trying to figure out what the best ammo to use for apartment defense is for my .357/38 and .45lc revolvers. I've been looking at prefragmented and am pretty impressed with the Glaser Safety Slug (Silver tip). I believe the air marshals used them in the past and supposedly they won't shoot through an airplane fuselage or overpenetrate through an assailants head. I believe they now use .357s with hallowpoints. Magsafe also makes prefragmented ammo.

My main concern is shooting through 4-5 layers of drywall or worst case through two front doors . The walls in my apartment are relatively thick compared to other ones I have lived in. I'm also concerned with having not enough penetration if I happen to hit an attacker in the arm (i.e. Miami Shootout).

Do you believe Glasers are an adequate/"safe" round? Anyone know of any sites that have tests using drywall with different rounds?

I don't have any info for you, but I would like to commend your concern for innocent bystanders.

 

[OK Hog Shooter]

For a civilain with no LE or military training, I'm gonna vote for a shotgun, guage of your choice, loaded with 000 buck. IMHO my preference is a Benelli M2 12 guage with more of the same!

 

[G.T. Smith]

Perfect paranoia= perfect awareness. Stay aware.
If I happen to shoot through an exterior wall of my house, first of all my house would fall down, then the load would have to travel 3 or more miles through densely wooded land before it could hit somebody.
Bird shot will do the trick. I remember a friend of mine that went into a bar, all drunk and crazy with a chain saw. The bartender shot him with a 20 gauge using no.6 shot. He was dead when he hit the floor.
Maybe a Judge or Governor loaded with 410 shot would keep the load in the room better?
Peace,
Gordon

 

[The Big D]

Yes! Your concerns are well-founded, and I am happy you are considering your neighbors. Truly.

BTW, note you are a new Forum member. Please keep posting...lots to be learned here...and that's NOT just for the new folks. Take care.

Be safe.

I see your point, I don't like the idea of having to use new fangled prefrag ammo. But I am responsible for every bullet I fire, and if I miss (average 4/5 miss in defense situations I believe) I could be sued/injure/kill my neighbor. I've decided what the best shooting lanes/backstops in my apartment will be and firing in those lanes I think I could probably use a .38 hollow point and not overpenetrate to the neighbor's apartment. I'm not sure though

 

[S&W360Talo357]

Yes! Your concerns are well-founded, and I am happy you are considering your neighbors. Truly.

BTW, note you are a new Forum member. Please keep posting...lots to be learned here...and that's NOT just for the new folks. Take care.

Be safe.

Picked up the 360 Talo last week (for concealed carry, got some .38 +P Hornady Critical Defense for it) and am very happy with it!

I've thought about using .410 out of a revolver for home defense, alotta different opinions on that though. Personally, I think 000 buck "designer" loads are adequate, I've seen 12" to 18" of penetration with them and creating four wound tracks at the same time is part of the equation. Definitely an intriguing option...

 

[IslayMalt]

I didn't read all of the reply's so excuse me if this has been covered.
I currently rent a crappy little studio apt and even if I wanted to keep a 12 guage, regardless of the effectiveness, there just plain isn't any room to wield it. So I keep my .45 loaded with the same hollowpoints as I use for carry/car/wherever else I may be. Penetration of walls is an acceptable risk that I'm willing to take. My wife keeps HydraShocks in her M60 at our house. I'm not concerned about penetration. Quite frankly her survival means more to me. I have serious reservations about frag ammo... I don't trust it for cloth penetration, regardless of what tests show.

 

[WR Moore]

I believe the air marshals used them in the past and supposedly they won't shoot through an airplane fuselage or overpenetrate through an assailants head.

I'm also concerned with having not enough penetration if I happen to hit an attacker in the arm (i.e. Miami Shootout).

Do a search on Glasers here, this has been dicussed many times.

1. Prefragmented ammo was NEVER issued to air marshalls.

2. Prefragmented ammo will not penetrate the arm and then continue intact to penetrate the body to sufficient depth to cause lethal injury.

 

[S&W360Talo357]

Do a search on Glasers here, this has been dicussed many times.

1. Prefragmented ammo was NEVER issued to air marshalls.

2. Prefragmented ammo will not penetrate the arm and then continue intact to penetrate the body to sufficient depth to cause lethal injury.

Yeah i'm starting to steer away from prefragged ammo, not enough emperical evidence. I was thinking 45 colt would penetrate enough but I can't find any good tests. I think I'm gonna go with JHPs in my firearms, FMJ penetrates more if im not mistaken.

 

[S&W360Talo357]

Yeah, I'm 100% now. This article shows 2-6" of penetration using .45acp Magsafe. Would maybe look into the Glaser but 1)Took a concealed weapons class today and instructor said the plastic tip hardens after awhile, making it not fragment 2) Have read actual cases of LEOs using .357 and .38 Glasers and having bad results, not to mention the air marshall myth...

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number3/article432.htm

I'm going with Hornady Critical Defense +P JHP in .38,.357,and .45 long colt

 

[IslayMalt]

I'm going with Hornady Critical Defense +P JHP in .38,.357,and .45 long colt

I'd like to try some but so far haven't found it out here. There isn't **** in Reno besides some overpriced gimmic ammo that I can't remember the name of... $60 for 20 rounds. For my 442 that might be ok; but I usually put at least 150 rounds through my .45 before I'm comfortable that it'll feed right. And I'd like to have the same type for both; for what reason I'm not sure

 

[WR Moore]

The NRA did an article on the Critical Defense and whatever new round Winchester came up with earlier this year. The design intent on the Critical Defense was not to exceed 10 inches of penetration. While that is certainly sufficient for an unobstructed thorax hit, I'm not entirely comfortable with that limitation absent extensive testing if we're talking intermediate barriers.

Your concerns may vary.

Frankly, unless your needs require laminated glass/auto bodywork penetration, just about any major manufacturers JHP should work fine if you put it in a vital area. Your emphasis should be on practice so you don't miss the target rather than trying to find a round that isn't going to pass through drywall.

 

[W.E.G.]

The likelihood of anybody shot with Glasers at normal gunfight distances continuing the fight is about as far-fetched as the likelihood of an errant bullet passing through the wall and striking an innocent.

If you doubt this, buy a cheap roast. Wrap it in denim, and shoot it at 8 feet. Then extrapolate what it would have done to somebody's face, or their elbow, or their chest.

Then shoot that same roast 4 more times, and tell us what you think.

The roast... is toast.

 

[GatorFarmer]

Someone shot a roast with a .44 mag Glaser in front of Dr. Fackler once and asked him how long someone could survive such a wound. He replied that it would be about four days before infection set it.

There is no free lunch. Humans are like roaches. They are hard to kill and adapt themeselves to any environment. They can limp around with limbs gone, have part of the brain destoryed, lose half their blood... There's a piece of the brain about the size of a dime, the old "lizard core" that you have to destroy to shut someone down instantly. Otherwise you have to wait for them to run out of blood, and that can take a while.

Any bullet that will penetrate deeply enough in a human being to reach and damage vital structures will go through walls.

The closest thing to a "magic" solution in terms of terminal effectiveness (or whatever label one wishes to give it) is a 5.56mm carbine using light JHP ammunition. Essentially varmint loads. That's it. (Or you can use the bayonet I suppose.)

Your local Walmart will happily sell you a Mini14 for around 600 dollars if you can't afford, don't want, or don't like an AR clone. They'll sell you some varmint loads too. But you'll have to order the 20 or 30 rd mags, they don't carry those. Yet.

For a .357 fired indoors I'd opt for the old 158gr LSWCHP +P offerings, preferably the Remington. Less flash, less noise, decent results.

There's a reason behind the 12" min gelatin standard, but what many people forget is that the original IWBA standard was 18" or MORE of penetration, and that 12" in the min number and they forget the "or MORE" part of things.

Me? I was a slumlord. People had every reason to choose my apartment.

Best thing to do is just purchase whatever quality JHP that is reasonably heavy in weight for a given caliber that you can afford to use. Then arrange to go out and kill a hog somewhere, preferably using a knife (hence the term pig sticker). There is a lot of blood and squealing that way and it helps get a person used to it. (When my wife was in field med, they had to work on pigs that had been shot to help prepare for human casualties.) If you can't arrange for a hog, get a rabbit and a claw hammer. It'll taste like chicken afterwards when you fry it up. Now you've learned where meat comes from and not to be squeamish.

 

[moosedog]

A shotgun with #2 shot will work just fine.
Personally, I would move.