Schofield 2000 Top-Break Problem with Cylinder Hitting Cylinder Catch

[Hearsedriver]

I have a Schofield 2000 top break revolver that has 2 tabs on the bottom rear of the rear sight that I assume are to keep the cylinder from going back too far during recoil. One of the tabs is broken off as shown. Are these tabs necassary? As you can see, the tabs are making dents on the rear of the cylinder. I havent contacted S&W yet but from what I have read, they dont have any parst for these. Im trying to find a solution if anyone has any ideas. Thanks

 

[Hearsedriver]

So, it looks like the part that the tab is broken off of is called the cylinder retainer. It looks like the only function of those 2 tabs is to keep the cylinder from being removed when the gun is broke open. If that is the case, I wonder how it broke and how it caused the dings on the back of the cylinder? Looking at the area where the tab broke off, it appears that that part may be a MIM part or casting of some kind. I was thinking that maybe it could be tig welded and a new tab shaped to match the other but, can it be welded? Any gunsmiths here? How you approach this repair?

 

[Protocall_Design]

Maybe that's why they call them top breaks?

I have always liked the look of the Schofield, but never seen anything but a few pictures. All the S&W MIM parts I've seen can be readily TIG welded. I've done it several times. That one could probably be welded and re machined.

It's hard to tell from the one picture, but it looks like that might be a separate piece from the top strap. If it's a small removable part, I would probably just make a new one out of tool steel and properly heat treat it and be done with the problem.

 

[scooter123]

Before you repair that tab or the cylinder I think you need to address the CAUSE for this failure. Because those tabs are only intended to retain the cylinder in position during the ejection cycle when the cylinder and barrel are opened.

As for the CAUSE of this damage I suspect that the frame has been stretched, most likely by loads that are too "hot" for this top break. Originally these revolvers were chambered in a caliber that preceded the 44 special, the 44 Russian. A cartridge that was shorter and less powerful than the relatively mild (in today's terms) 44 Special. IIRC the 2000 model was chambered in 45 Long Colt and that particular cartridge can be loaded to power levels approaching that of the 44 Magnum. IMO any copy of the old Top Breaks should be considered to be as weak as the originals and any ammunition used in them be downloaded to the energy level of the 44 Russian. Meaning you should have been using what today is referred as Cowboy loads, basically powder puff versions intended for Cowboy competition shooting.

As for Repair, since this was a post 1989 manufactured revolver Smith & Wesson is obligated to stand by the terms of the Lifetime Warranty that is in place for revolvers manufactured after 1989. Unfortunately they may not have the means to repair your revolver. If so they will probably offer you an "alternative" model to replace your revolver. IF so I would suggest that you take NOTHING less than the 500 Magnum. Then sell that and use the proceeds to locate and purchase a Schofield copy made by Uberti. BTW, I have a sneaking hunch that the Schofield 2000 revolvers sold by S&W were actually produced by Uberti.

If they can repair your revolver I expect that the process will be to straighten the frame until it gages properly with the cylinder closed then they will repair the top strap and and dings in the cylinder. After that they will probably have to refinish the revolver. Obviously this would be a rather expensive repair so don't be surprised if they ask what specific ammunition was used in this revolver. They may also claim that you voided your warranty by using ammunition that was not approved for use with this revolver in the manual that came with the revolver. I would suggest that if at all possible you have the manual for this revolver in hand any time you are talking to S&W.

 

[Hearsedriver]

Before you repair that tab or the cylinder I think you need to address the CAUSE for this failure. Because those tabs are only intended to retain the cylinder in position during the ejection cycle when the cylinder and barrel are opened.

As for the CAUSE of this damage I suspect that the frame has been stretched, most likely by loads that are too "hot" for this top break. Originally these revolvers were chambered in a caliber that preceded the 44 special, the 44 Russian. A cartridge that was shorter and less powerful than the relatively mild (in today's terms) 44 Special. IIRC the 2000 model was chambered in 45 Long Colt and that particular cartridge can be loaded to power levels approaching that of the 44 Magnum. IMO any copy of the old Top Breaks should be considered to be as weak as the originals and any ammunition used in them be downloaded to the energy level of the 44 Russian. Meaning you should have been using what today is referred as Cowboy loads, basically powder puff versions intended for Cowboy competition shooting.

As for Repair, since this was a post 1989 manufactured revolver Smith & Wesson is obligated to stand by the terms of the Lifetime Warranty that is in place for revolvers manufactured after 1989. Unfortunately they may not have the means to repair your revolver. If so they will probably offer you an "alternative" model to replace your revolver. IF so I would suggest that you take NOTHING less than the 500 Magnum. Then sell that and use the proceeds to locate and purchase a Schofield copy made by Uberti. BTW, I have a sneaking hunch that the Schofield 2000 revolvers sold by S&W were actually produced by Uberti.

If they can repair your revolver I expect that the process will be to straighten the frame until it gages properly with the cylinder closed then they will repair the top strap and and dings in the cylinder. After that they will probably have to refinish the revolver. Obviously this would be a rather expensive repair so don't be surprised if they ask what specific ammunition was used in this revolver. They may also claim that you voided your warranty by using ammunition that was not approved for use with this revolver in the manual that came with the revolver. I would suggest that if at all possible you have the manual for this revolver in hand any time you are talking to S&W.

Thanks for all of the great information. I have read of this issue on a few of these guns where the tabs leave indentions on the back of the cylinder. I wonder if the cylinder was made slightly too long. I think it left the factory with something out of spec. Its had 500 rounds through it since new. I was able to dress and touch up the marks on the rear of the barrel and they dont bother me. I would also like to know why that tab broke off because the cylinder does not move back far enough to touch the tabs when the barrel is closed if I push it to the rear manually but, they obviously have since they left indentions on the cylinder. Im called S&W tomorrow with hopes that they will at least sell me the cylinder retainer. If not, I will order a Uberti replacement to see if it fits or can be fitted to my gun. They look the same in the pictures. The finish on the gun still looks new so, I dont see why it would need to be refinished although I wouldnt mind having them replace or refinish the cylinder.

 

[2152hq]

My first guess is that the extractor rod which is simply screwed into the back end of the extractor is too long by a few .000

Perhaps it's backed out a little, or the parts are just a touch to long.

The extractor rod with the extractor attached is pushed upward (to eject the casings) as the revolver is opened.
The 'extractor cam' does that pushing. That part is located in the rounded portion of the frame at the front and is the common part in most every top break..that round washer like part with the arm like projection.

As the extractor rod w/ extractor attached are pushed upwards as the bbl is opened, the bbl reached a limit of travel (full open).
**IF the extractor rod w/ extractor reaches IT'S full limit of travel before that..and that would be to be stopped by those fragile cylinder stop tabs one of which is already broken,,,,then the extractor cam continues to push hard on the extractor rod and extractor against those tabs.
That extended motion would IMO lead to breaking the tab(s) and/or imprinting what is left of them into the rear edge of the cylinder itself.


Clean up the marks and they'll just reappear. The source is still there. Something is pushing the cylinder hard with the extractor already pushed out to it's limit in the ejection cycle.

Before you disasemble anything,,open the revolver, tease the extractor out and back as far as you can w/o it snapping back in the cylinder.
When the extractor is at it's full out/extended position,,,note if the cylinder itself is now pushed hard up against that small bbl latch tab(s).
It should NOT be.
At most when ejecting empty fired rounds some drag from the brass cases will push the cylinder back against those tabs.
But the mechanical push against the extractor rod and extractor should NOT be transfered to the cylinder so that it can then push on those tabs.
I think that is what is breaking them and marking the cylinder.

Remove the bbl latch,,if they are anything like the orig, the rear screw should only need a 1/2 turn loosened.
Then loosen the front screw.

You should be able to tilt the latch upwards to clear the small tab(s) from the cylinder edge and pull the cylinder itself right off it's axel pin.
If it won't tilt with a 1/2 turn on the rear screw,,then just remove the rear screw. The orig ones had a 1/2dia cut thru the body of the rear screw to allow disassembly w/o full removal of the screw(s).

The extractor rod hanging out the back of the cylinder should have a hole thru it. With some empty cases in the chambers, put a punch thru the hole and unscrew RH the extractor rod from the extractor and pull the parts out. A coil spring will be around the assembly and that'll slide right off.

Make note of wether the thing unscrews with any force needed or wether it's loosely assembled.
Take a look at end of the rod where the cam pushes on it. Does it look deformed a bit and heavily burnished like the cam arm was over stressed iin pushing on it..
Perhaps a slight shortening of the end of the extractor rod would do it, or maybe just tightening the assembly.

The orig bbl latch could be laser or tig welded and reshaped w/o a lot of fanfare to complete the repair.

The newer Schofield may have some modern internal refinements and differences I'm not aware of,,I've never had one apart. But this is what I recall of the orig pistol and I think may be the problem

 

[Hearsedriver]

My first guess is that the extractor rod which is simply screwed into the back end of the extractor is too long by a few .000

Perhaps it's backed out a little, or the parts are just a touch to long.

The extractor rod with the extractor attached is pushed upward (to eject the casings) as the revolver is opened.
The 'extractor cam' does that pushing. That part is located in the rounded portion of the frame at the front and is the common part in most every top break..that round washer like part with the arm like projection.

As the extractor rod w/ extractor attached are pushed upwards as the bbl is opened, the bbl reached a limit of travel (full open).
**IF the extractor rod w/ extractor reaches IT'S full limit of travel before that..and that would be to be stopped by those fragile cylinder stop tabs one of which is already broken,,,,then the extractor cam continues to push hard on the extractor rod and extractor against those tabs.
That extended motion would IMO lead to breaking the tab(s) and/or imprinting what is left of them into the rear edge of the cylinder itself.


Clean up the marks and they'll just reappear. The source is still there. Something is pushing the cylinder hard with the extractor already pushed out to it's limit in the ejection cycle.

Before you disasemble anything,,open the revolver, tease the extractor out and back as far as you can w/o it snapping back in the cylinder.
When the extractor is at it's full out/extended position,,,note if the cylinder itself is now pushed hard up against that small bbl latch tab(s).
It should NOT be.
At most when ejecting empty fired rounds some drag from the brass cases will push the cylinder back against those tabs.
But the mechanical push against the extractor rod and extractor should NOT be transfered to the cylinder so that it can then push on those tabs.
I think that is what is breaking them and marking the cylinder.

Remove the bbl latch,,if they are anything like the orig, the rear screw should only need a 1/2 turn loosened.
Then loosen the front screw.

You should be able to tilt the latch upwards to clear the small tab(s) from the cylinder edge and pull the cylinder itself right off it's axel pin.
If it won't tilt with a 1/2 turn on the rear screw,,then just remove the rear screw. The orig ones had a 1/2dia cut thru the body of the rear screw to allow disassembly w/o full removal of the screw(s).

The extractor rod hanging out the back of the cylinder should have a hole thru it. With some empty cases in the chambers, put a punch thru the hole and unscrew RH the extractor rod from the extractor and pull the parts out. A coil spring will be around the assembly and that'll slide right off.

Make note of wether the thing unscrews with any force needed or wether it's loosely assembled.
Take a look at end of the rod where the cam pushes on it. Does it look deformed a bit and heavily burnished like the cam arm was over stressed iin pushing on it..
Perhaps a slight shortening of the end of the extractor rod would do it, or maybe just tightening the assembly.

The orig bbl latch could be laser or tig welded and reshaped w/o a lot of fanfare to complete the repair.

The newer Schofield may have some modern internal refinements and differences I'm not aware of,,I've never had one apart. But this is what I recall of the orig pistol and I think may be the problem

Thanks for your thourough and thoughtful post! It would definetly make sense however, when this revolver is broke open, the cylinder rest against those tabs as soon as the extractor starts to extend and is held there under the tension of the coil spring around the extractor rod. Even when the barrel is fully open, I can still easily slide the cylinder down the extractor rod about 1/16". Even if you slammed the barrel open, I dont think there is enough pressure to make the dents in the rear of the cylinder but this gun has been babied. It almost has to be something happening under recoil.

 

[Hearsedriver]

I called S&W yesterday and they are sending me a replacment cylinder catch under warranty. I was happy that they had them in stock. As far as the cause of the marks on the back of the cylinder left by the cylinder catch tabs, from what I can see and from the previous posters reply, they are caused during the ejection process. I probably snapped the barrel open too fast or too hard at some point, maybe when the action was getting dirty or somthing. From checking photos posted on the web, I found several examples of the same markings on the rear of the cylinders of other 2000's. Mine has a 500 round count so, its going to show some wear. I thought that this might have been occurring during recoil but, it would be imposssible with cartridges in the cylinder. In one thread that I read, another owner was told by S&W that the marks are normal. I would imagine that most of these guns have never been shot and certainly not as much as mine has been. I would love to hear from other owners of the 2000 with higher round counts about any issues like mine that you have experienced. Thanks for the help here guys!

 

[glowe]

Until you determine the cause of the issue, it will continue to occur. You are correct in that the tabs receive very little stress when opening the revolver, even quickly, should not cause even a mark on the rear of the cylinder.

Unless I missed it, you have not stated what ammunition you have been using? I believe that the marks on the cylinder are caused during firing. I would guess what is happening is that the base pin that is in the center of the ejector star is too short and not fully contacting the recoil shield and the tabs of catch are taking all the recoil of the gun. I am also wondering if you have used any hot loads??

The center pin in the ejector star of old time revolvers could actually be moved and unscrewed, but I have never tried it on any of my Model 3s. I have long believed that the base pin could be adjusted by turning it to tighten up the cylinder. If that is a possibility with your S&W 2000, moving the base pin back could solve the problem.

I can only compare your images to a Navy Arms Schofield that has had a few thousand rounds through it. I have loaded up to full charge FFF, 36 grains, that kick like a mule, but still have not one mark on the rear of my cylinder. There is only a slight click and undetectable fore & aft movement on the cylinder when closed. The catch on my Navy Schofield is exactly like yours, so you either have a short catch or a short base pin to cause the issues you have in my opinion. We are only talking about a few thousandths movement that will make the difference. I measured .012" between the rear of the brass and the recoil shield, so the brass will not stop the cylinder from traveling to the rear. You will see that a Navy Arms ejector star is a one piece cast unit, without the possibility of adjustment. An adjustable base pin would have two small slots on each side.

 

[Hearsedriver]

Until you determine the cause of the issue, it will continue to occur. You are correct in that the tabs receive very little stress when opening the revolver, even quickly, should not cause even a mark on the rear of the cylinder.

Unless I missed it, you have not stated what ammunition you have been using? I believe that the marks on the cylinder are caused during firing. I would guess what is happening is that the base pin that is in the center of the ejector star is too short and not fully contacting the recoil shield and the tabs of catch are taking all the recoil of the gun. I am also wondering if you have used any hot loads??

The center pin in the ejector star of old time revolvers could actually be moved and unscrewed, but I have never tried it on any of my Model 3s. I have long believed that the base pin could be adjusted by turning it to tighten up the cylinder. If that is a possibility with your S&W 2000, moving the base pin back could solve the problem.

I can only compare your images to a Navy Arms Schofield that has had a few thousand rounds through it. I have loaded up to full charge FFF, 36 grains, that kick like a mule, but still have not one mark on the rear of my cylinder. There is only a slight click and undetectable fore & aft movement on the cylinder when closed. The catch on my Navy Schofield is exactly like yours, so you either have a short catch or a short base pin to cause the issues you have in my opinion. We are only talking about a few thousandths movement that will make the difference. I measured .012" between the rear of the brass and the recoil shield, so the brass will not stop the cylinder from traveling to the rear. You will see that a Navy Arms ejector star is a one piece cast unit, without the possibility of adjustment. An adjustable base pin would have two small slots on each side.

Thanks Gary. How can I move the base pin back? Unscrew it? Would that not make the cylinder closer to the rear fo the frame and those tabs on the cylinder catch? Im not quite understanding. Its only had factory cowboy loads through it. C

 

[Hearsedriver]

Also, as seen in this picture, there is a significant gap between the rear of the cylinder and tab with the cylinder pushed back as hard as I can. Could it be moving rearward that much more during recoil?

 

[Hearsedriver]

So that we are using the same terminology, it might help to refer to this schematic. I assume you are calling part 879 the base pin.

 

[glowe]

In original Model 3 revolvers, there is a slot on either side of what that schematic calls an extractor stud. A slotted screwdriver is used to turn the stud or base pin.

When the cylinder is open, I can move the cylinder back to make contact with the tabs. When the cylinder is closed, it will barely move because the stud is firmly bedded in the recoil shield. In order for the tabs to make contact with the cylinder, that stud has to be too short in my opinion. Turning it out until the "play" is taken out of the cylinder when closed should make it impossible for the tabs to contact the cylinder.

That is the only thing I can think of that would cause enough force to dent the cylinder.

 

[Hearsedriver]

In original Model 3 revolvers, there is a slot on either side of what that schematic calls an extractor stud. A slotted screwdriver is used to turn the stud or base pin.

When the cylinder is open, I can move the cylinder back to make contact with the tabs. When the cylinder is closed, it will barely move because the stud is firmly bedded in the recoil shield. In order for the tabs to make contact with the cylinder, that stud has to be too short in my opinion. Turning it out until the "play" is taken out of the cylinder when closed should make it impossible for the tabs to contact the cylinder.

That is the only thing I can think of that would cause enough force to dent the cylinder.

Ahhh. Ok I understand now. The extractor stud is under spring tension I guess until the barrel is closed. I am still not sure how or if that stud can be extended. There is no provision on this base pin to turn it unless it is threaded. I cant tell if it is threaded or pressed into the frame. At least you have narrowed the issue down to this area and I appreciate it! By the way, I just measured the cylinder end play at .007". Does that sounds OK or excessive?

 

[glowe]

My Navy Arms has a cast steel ejector star and the base pin/stud is part of the star, so no option to adjust.

 

[Hearsedriver]

If anyone here has a NIB Schofield 2000 and willing to measure the cylinder gap and post it here, I would apprciate it.

 

[Hearsedriver]

I hope we can revist this issue that is still happening. This morning, I used the softest shooting HSM cowboy loads I had and the rear of the cylinder is still hitting the cylinder catch and leaving dents. This is happening during recoil for sure. I dont know what to do to keep the cylinder from moving back too far. I have attached some pictures of how the cylinder is setup hoping for some ideas. After 550 rounds, she sure is a good shooter! Thanks!

 

[2152hq]

Is there a possibility the cylinder/barrel assembly is jumping open during firing/recoil?

I know it's not supposed to open with the hammer down all the way (fired position).
But just try it and see if the bbl latch is allowing any movement with the hammer all the way down and in some way then allowing the bbl/cylinder assembly to open just a tiny amt.

If the bbl can open even a small amt during firing (and then re-lock), can the cylinder move reward during that moment on it's axle and hit those tabs?

It doesn't seem all that probable but total unlatching of topbreaks is not all that uncommon.
...Having one unlatch and then lock back up certainly is!
But none have the lock system quite like the Schofield either.

If it can't doing some simple hand manipulation of the action then this theory is out the window,,
If it can,,perhaps placing a small piece of scotch tape or similar material over the bbl latch and onto the frame and then firing the pistol to see if the tape is broken by the latch opening during live fire might reveal it.


and maybe this is another dead end too..

Just some idle thoughts in the mid afternoon heat..I keep trying

 

[Hearsedriver]

I dont know if it is unlatching and then relatching or not. There is a very slight about of play in the latch when I wiggle the barrel and frame but the gun actually feels pretty tight. There is about .007" inch of front to back movement of the cylinder. I dont know if shimming to reduce that endplay would solve it or not. Im wondering of the frame hasnt been stretched slightly.

 

[glowe]

You still have not mentioned what you have been shooting in the gun? The latch on the Schofield was designed to take what 45 caliber ammo could offer in the day. The latch would have to travel over 1/8" before the gun could open and then there is no way it would be able to re-latch on its own.

I too have been thinking that there is a chance of a bent frame, but solid lock-up would indicate that has not happened?? My theory is that the base pin is too short, since nothing else can prevent the cylinder from traveling rearward. Perhaps a gunsmith could add length by building up a weld on the stud and shaping it until the cylinder locks solidly without enough play in the cylinder to allow it to contact the cylinder catch tabs. Shims will do nothing to prevent the damage you are seeing since they will not stop rearward movement of the cylinder.

Lastly, .007" sounds way to small?? With the action open, pull the cylinder back as far as possible and measure the gap. Now close the gun and pull the cylinder back and measure. You can figure out what you have with feeler gauges in front of the cylinder. Using my reproduction Schofield as an example, i measured the gap between the barrel and face of the cylinder when the rear of the cylinder was touching the catch tabs and it was .015" Closing the gun and pushing the cylinder as far rearward as possible, I got .009". That tells me that the recoil shield is holding the cylinder .006" away from the tabs and therefore no damage to the cylinder. Check your out with careful measurements. Snug fit with the gauges, but not forced is the key.