I have seen where some people have pushed 158 grain lswc to 1040 in a .38 special. I would rather shoot 125 grainers or even 140 out of a 17/8 or 2 inch snub. My question is could a 125 or 140 be safely pushed to say 1200 or even 1275? On second thought could someone publish a copy of speer number 8 in .38 special for me? Thanks!
screaming snumb loads .38 spec?
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Perhaps the Hodgdon online data will be of use to you.
Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com
Speer only posts loading updates online.
When you look at published velocities, please realize that barrel length is critical, as is type of barrel. Also some "estimated" data is optimistic.
Having a chronograph is very educational, especially when testing loads in various barrel lengths with different types of powder. I mostly use HP38/231 in .38 Special, although there are several medium-speed powders that work. It is not very rewarding to try to use very slow powders in .38 Special to achieve high velocites.
One problem with .38 Special is that the SAAMI pressure limits for +P is only 20K PSI, and if you want to load .357 pressures and achieve .357 velocities, it is best to use a .357. Slow powders like Win 296 can be loaded in a .357. While I find shooting a max velocity .357 out of a 3" barrel unpleasant, there is no denying it gets the bullet moving fast.
Cartridge Loads - Hodgdon Reloading Data Center - data.hodgdon.com
Speer only posts loading updates online.
When you look at published velocities, please realize that barrel length is critical, as is type of barrel. Also some "estimated" data is optimistic.
Having a chronograph is very educational, especially when testing loads in various barrel lengths with different types of powder. I mostly use HP38/231 in .38 Special, although there are several medium-speed powders that work. It is not very rewarding to try to use very slow powders in .38 Special to achieve high velocites.
One problem with .38 Special is that the SAAMI pressure limits for +P is only 20K PSI, and if you want to load .357 pressures and achieve .357 velocities, it is best to use a .357. Slow powders like Win 296 can be loaded in a .357. While I find shooting a max velocity .357 out of a 3" barrel unpleasant, there is no denying it gets the bullet moving fast.
1200fps from a snub at SAAMI pressures isn't really doable. There are some old data loads that came in around 1100 fps with 125s in a snub.Were they safe? Thousands got shot without blowing up the users guns but you are wandering alone in the desert witth such loads nowadays. With current data 125s are lucky to reach 1000fps from a snub.......but they are plenty scary to be on the receiving end of at 900fps.
bmcgilvray
Member
Treeman's right. One could be said to be having a bad day to be on the receiving end of a 125 grain .38 Special slug traveling at 900 feet per second.
Good hits are golden and bad hits are unfortunate. Don't get too wound up with expansion as the panacea for effective handgun self defense.
Good hits are golden and bad hits are unfortunate. Don't get too wound up with expansion as the panacea for effective handgun self defense.
fredj338
Member
Not 1200fps out of a snub, but I could see 1000fps running +p w/a slower powder like Longhsot from a snub.
125 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Longshot .357" 1.455" 7.0 1228 18,300 PSI
There is even a bit of wiggle room w/ LS too. I have some, & a snub, maybe I'll run some tests.
125 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Longshot .357" 1.455" 7.0 1228 18,300 PSI
There is even a bit of wiggle room w/ LS too. I have some, & a snub, maybe I'll run some tests.
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Skip Sackett
US Veteran
You asked, now you are responsible for your actions!
Having knowledge is not the same as having wisdom. Wisdom is the proper application of knowledge.
Here is some knowledge you asked for, don't misuse it or you will prove your lack of wisdom!
Now, with all of this talk of fast bullets out of short barrels going on on the forum in the last few days, it would seem there is an epidemic of folks trying to get themselves blown up.
There are some loads I will not use in an alloy snubbie while they would be quite acceptable in a steel revolver.
If you want to push bullets to levels of days gone by with current data, you may want to look to Vita Vohri(sp) powders and load to their European data. It would seem that they have a higher regard for the durability of their firearms than SAAMI has for ours, even though they are the same firearms!
http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/VihtavuoriInternationalReloguide2009.pdf
Some of their data for a 158gr LSWC with N340 shows over 1100fps from a 6 1/2" barrel. Might be something to check out!
I know that their older data goes even above that!
Imagine, 158gr LSWC going over 1000fps, in 38spl, unheard of!
Having knowledge is not the same as having wisdom. Wisdom is the proper application of knowledge.
Here is some knowledge you asked for, don't misuse it or you will prove your lack of wisdom!
Now, with all of this talk of fast bullets out of short barrels going on on the forum in the last few days, it would seem there is an epidemic of folks trying to get themselves blown up.
There are some loads I will not use in an alloy snubbie while they would be quite acceptable in a steel revolver.
If you want to push bullets to levels of days gone by with current data, you may want to look to Vita Vohri(sp) powders and load to their European data. It would seem that they have a higher regard for the durability of their firearms than SAAMI has for ours, even though they are the same firearms!
http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/VihtavuoriInternationalReloguide2009.pdf
Some of their data for a 158gr LSWC with N340 shows over 1100fps from a 6 1/2" barrel. Might be something to check out!
I know that their older data goes even above that!
Imagine, 158gr LSWC going over 1000fps, in 38spl, unheard of!
canoe on the yukon
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In the early 70s,I used(after working up to)loads from the Speer #8 manual in a number of J frame Smiths.These were all steel frame.I never used them in an aluminum frame gun.
It was more relevant then.Except for a model from an obscure smaller company(security arms,I think),there were no small frame 357 mag snubbies,except for some after market jobs which were questionable.
Unlike many on the forum,I have never felt well armed with a 38 special (I don't want to get into a pointless debate about that).The reason a packed a J frame 38 was because I considered it to be a passable compromise.
That was then and this is now.With several 357 snubbies on the market,there seems to be no great logic behind straining the 38 with loads which still won't equal the 357 magnum.If one chooses to load the 357 below it's capability,that's their decision.
TiroFijo
Member
Skip, from the 2006 Vihtavuori manual:
"All of this reloading information has been provided by Nammo Lapua Oy. The data given here were obtained in laboratory conditions following strictly the CIP (Commission International Permanente) June 13, 1990 and November 9, 1993 rules. The listed maximum loads have been determined according to the respective CIP/SAAMI maximum pressure specification, whichever is lower.
These test methods have been deemed to be safe throughout the world. Pressure is measured at the case mouth or from inside the case according to the CIP."
Lab data is one thing, looking at primers and guessing is another
"All of this reloading information has been provided by Nammo Lapua Oy. The data given here were obtained in laboratory conditions following strictly the CIP (Commission International Permanente) June 13, 1990 and November 9, 1993 rules. The listed maximum loads have been determined according to the respective CIP/SAAMI maximum pressure specification, whichever is lower.
These test methods have been deemed to be safe throughout the world. Pressure is measured at the case mouth or from inside the case according to the CIP."
Lab data is one thing, looking at primers and guessing is another
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
???????????????????????????
I guess I am too dense to catch what you are meaning. I hope we don't have to go through all that "Speer had pressure testing equipment for the #8" stuff again! Why don't we leave that lay.
In every manual that has been produced for reloading data, there is a section in it on pressure. Detecting the signs for the average reloader is usually spelled out in that section. Do you know what the NEW, #49 Lyman says in it? Sure the same thing that the #48 and #47 and ....... I hope you get my drift. It says, look at the primers and watch for sticky extraction BECAUSE most reloaders don't have pressure equipment!
My inference was simply this: Some folks like to stay in the current data. They also want to have loads that run at maximum velocity. To put both of those things together it would seem that Vita Vhori has the data to do that.
That is the only point I was trying to make with the above post, period.
Now, I must say for myself, it would seem that powders in the same burn rate area of N340 should be able to give you the same kind of performance, give or take a little. That is for me though, not for everyone else.
I'm not going to ask you to believe me with a comparison between two powders. Here is a burn rate chart, one I had nothing to do with, that shows burn rates by company compared to those of another company.
Notice all the powders on the same line with N340 from Vita, please!
GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Burn Rate Chart
Lab data is one thing, looking at primers and guessing is another
I guess I am too dense to catch what you are meaning. I hope we don't have to go through all that "Speer had pressure testing equipment for the #8" stuff again! Why don't we leave that lay.
In every manual that has been produced for reloading data, there is a section in it on pressure. Detecting the signs for the average reloader is usually spelled out in that section. Do you know what the NEW, #49 Lyman says in it? Sure the same thing that the #48 and #47 and ....... I hope you get my drift. It says, look at the primers and watch for sticky extraction BECAUSE most reloaders don't have pressure equipment!
My inference was simply this: Some folks like to stay in the current data. They also want to have loads that run at maximum velocity. To put both of those things together it would seem that Vita Vhori has the data to do that.
That is the only point I was trying to make with the above post, period.
Now, I must say for myself, it would seem that powders in the same burn rate area of N340 should be able to give you the same kind of performance, give or take a little. That is for me though, not for everyone else.
I'm not going to ask you to believe me with a comparison between two powders. Here is a burn rate chart, one I had nothing to do with, that shows burn rates by company compared to those of another company.
Notice all the powders on the same line with N340 from Vita, please!
GS CUSTOM BULLETS - Burn Rate Chart
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Like, for instance, SR-4756?
Spotteddog
Member
Excellent link and site Skip!
BTW: Good to be reading you John! (38/44)
BTW: Good to be reading you John! (38/44)
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
canoe on the yukon
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Skip,
This is not to start an argument.It's a legitimate observation.I noticed in the chart that Longshot is on the same line as 2400.As you know,data is very different between these two.
When all things are considered,one is excellent for heavy shotshell loads and the other for heavy handgun loads.Whenever the two are used in the same cartridge,charge weight,velocity are quite different.
This is not to start an argument.It's a legitimate observation.I noticed in the chart that Longshot is on the same line as 2400.As you know,data is very different between these two.
When all things are considered,one is excellent for heavy shotshell loads and the other for heavy handgun loads.Whenever the two are used in the same cartridge,charge weight,velocity are quite different.
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Good observation and comment. The chart that Skip linked to is a good comparative chart, but there are others that rank powders much more specifically. This one, for instance: Powder Burn Rates
Neither chart accounts for differences in burning/pressure curves or characteristics between powders of near-identical burn rates. For instance, I've loaded lots and lots of ammo with both N-340 and SR-4756 (more with 4756). I've found 340 to be much more brittle and less forgiving than 4756, in every caliber in which I've loaded both, even though it's only slightly faster on the chart.
And thanks, Spot! Good to be read!
Spotteddog
Member
And that's another one being saved as well 38/44!
oldRoger
US Veteran
I like the GSC chart, it is similar to that published by VV which is my mainstay. The consecutively numbered charts always leave a question in my mind since I don’t know what the chart maker does when he has three essentially identical powders. Alphabetize??
A comment, my favorite powders today are the VV powders which I think for my uses have a wonderful range. However, when you consider VV 3N37 and N350, I think you appreciate the problem we face, the question of which is faster seems to be answered: It all depends.
A comment, my favorite powders today are the VV powders which I think for my uses have a wonderful range. However, when you consider VV 3N37 and N350, I think you appreciate the problem we face, the question of which is faster seems to be answered: It all depends.
ADI's powder equivalency chart is imformative.....ADI's Smokeless Powders Handloaders Guide
Spotteddog
Member
Uhhh! Uhhh! as Officer Toody used to say on "Car 54 Where are You?" another KEEPER!
David Sinko
Member
To answer the original question, I have been getting 1230 FPS with 122 gr. cast bullets in my 2" 9mm Model 940. If I can safely do this with the 9mm, the .38 Special will at the very least equal that performance with lower pressure or even be able to exceed it. But I am no fan of 125 gr. bullets in the .38 Special and I have never tried it.
There are very good reasons for pursuing heavy handloads in the .38 Special. A steel frame .38 Special like a Model 36 or 60 is the optimum package for a small frame, five shot revolver. Any .357 "snub" will be bigger and harder to conceal and has never caught my interest as a hideout gun. The steel J Frame revolver is much tougher than most people will give it credit. You can easily and safely exceed 1000 FPS in such a revolver with 158 gr. cast bullets. I can do it with jacketed bullets in my Ruger but have not yet tried it with my Model 60. There is plenty of discussion about heavy charges of SR4756 and 158 gr. cast bullets and my experiences at the chrono indicate that the velocity figures given are attainable. Whether you feel the pressure levels are safe is something you can debate all day long.
All said and done, I prefer my 9mm 940 shooting 147 gr. Gold Dots at 1070 FPS. I prefer the moonclipped 9mm cartridges over the slight ballistic advantage of the .38 Special.
Dave Sinko
There are very good reasons for pursuing heavy handloads in the .38 Special. A steel frame .38 Special like a Model 36 or 60 is the optimum package for a small frame, five shot revolver. Any .357 "snub" will be bigger and harder to conceal and has never caught my interest as a hideout gun. The steel J Frame revolver is much tougher than most people will give it credit. You can easily and safely exceed 1000 FPS in such a revolver with 158 gr. cast bullets. I can do it with jacketed bullets in my Ruger but have not yet tried it with my Model 60. There is plenty of discussion about heavy charges of SR4756 and 158 gr. cast bullets and my experiences at the chrono indicate that the velocity figures given are attainable. Whether you feel the pressure levels are safe is something you can debate all day long.
All said and done, I prefer my 9mm 940 shooting 147 gr. Gold Dots at 1070 FPS. I prefer the moonclipped 9mm cartridges over the slight ballistic advantage of the .38 Special.
Dave Sinko
I was told, many years ago, the maximum pressures listed for just about every cartridge would decline as the weapons which chamber it grow older and possibly deteriorate as a result. As old as the .38 SPL is, does it make any sense that a "Max" pressure listed in the books could be quite safe for a modern, even J Frame, revolver? I have wondered about that for years!
