Hi StormiNorman; I think maybe you had too much coffee this morning. 12 Gauge sawed off shotgun???? Really????
SEARCHING FOR THE MOST "ACCURATE"
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Hi StormiNorman; I think maybe you had too much coffee this morning. 12 Gauge sawed off shotgun???? Really????
Dirtman
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Just take your doubled barreled shotgun out on the porch and shoot off a few rounds! Scares off the bad guys every time.
That's what self defense expert Joe Biden advised.
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The OP said he wanted match accuracy. That may or may not be a good idea, but that was HIS parameter. I suppose many have tried to answer his question to recommend something that is both match accurate and combat worthy. Those who have suggested combat accurate pistols (4 inches at 25 yards) and those who have suggested tiny pocket autos or mini-1911s just do not have a good handle on the term "match accuracy," which is 2 inches or so at 50 yards.
I think the FBI HRT, the US Marine MARSOC people and some others who have been shooting for a while may disagree with your assessment that match accuracy has nothing to do with defense firearms.
It is a good source of discussion, but some of these combat special teams want, for various reasons, absolute match accuracy in a combat reliable pistol. It is possible to obtain such, but it is expensive. The 1911 is quite capable of concealed carry.
After re-reading this thread, it caused me to think of the so called "Bureau Model" sold by Springfield Armory. Match accurate and reliable, extremely expensive and built in the custom shop. It is roughly the same size as the SIG 210-2 I originally mentioned, the main difference being that the SIG's cartridge is not as dependable in the stopping power department. On the other hand, the SIG 210-2 will still be shooting match accurate groups hundreds of thousands of rounds later. I know this from personal experience.
I also had forgotten about the HK P7M8. It is also pretty accurate. Not match accurate, but not bad either. And combat reliable. It is not too easy to find these days, however, and it is also very expensive.
So, I agree with you, the parameters of the original question may be not well thought out, but if the OP wants match accuracy, that is up to him.
Personally, it seems to me that if you are not happy with a Glock, M&P, basic Colt 1911 (as opposed to a match fitted 1911), a K frame or a J frame, then you are too picky.
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Concealablity & gilt-edged accuracy are often mutually exclusive terms. WHY? Because there's another factor at play here, and that's shootability. Concealment guns are smaller than target guns, and the smaller size can reduce your ability to control the gun to obtain the finest accuracy. Also, the sights are smaller, and often more rudimentary. They also have a larger sight "picture" because of their smaller size, this means that the rear notch is often larger, and the front sight is often narrower. These features are desirable in carry guns so you can see more of what you're aiming (pointing) at.
To validate this, find somebody local who has a Ransom Rest, which is a shooting fixture for handguns. You'll probably need to buy special grip inserts for your particular guns. Have your existing guns tested at the ranges you desire. Out to about 15 yards, most quality guns can shoot into one single ragged hole from the Ransom Rest. At 25 yards or so, expect perhaps 2 inches or so. The Ransom Rest is a mechanical device, and removes human input and error from the equation.
Mechanical accuracy isn't usually an issue, it's the interface with the shooter that comes up short. I assume that you can shoot well or you wouldn't have started this thread. For a truly target grade 9mm compact, consider a Commander-sized 1911 9mm, send it to an exceptional gunsmith with even more exceptional credentials on 1911s, along with a blank check, and a list of your expectations. Expect a lengthy wait, but the results will be worth it. It looks like you've tried almost every 9mm out there, either striker fired, or hammer gun, and found them lacking. Go custom.
To validate this, find somebody local who has a Ransom Rest, which is a shooting fixture for handguns. You'll probably need to buy special grip inserts for your particular guns. Have your existing guns tested at the ranges you desire. Out to about 15 yards, most quality guns can shoot into one single ragged hole from the Ransom Rest. At 25 yards or so, expect perhaps 2 inches or so. The Ransom Rest is a mechanical device, and removes human input and error from the equation.
Mechanical accuracy isn't usually an issue, it's the interface with the shooter that comes up short. I assume that you can shoot well or you wouldn't have started this thread. For a truly target grade 9mm compact, consider a Commander-sized 1911 9mm, send it to an exceptional gunsmith with even more exceptional credentials on 1911s, along with a blank check, and a list of your expectations. Expect a lengthy wait, but the results will be worth it. It looks like you've tried almost every 9mm out there, either striker fired, or hammer gun, and found them lacking. Go custom.
Most accurate .......
My first post; will probably get blown off the forum.
Is the Sig Sauer P230SL or P232SL having too light a load, the reason no one seems to have mentioned them ? I've read that many police forces have used them as backup/CC.
I use the "most folks can't shoot a pistol very accurately" idea; I'm of course not suggesting that's the case for folks on this forum, but seems to apply to the population in general, including myself. I qualified at the U.S. Treasury schools, but before many of the posters were born.
I bought a new P230SL about 10 years ago. I've never shot it. The target that was included, suggests someone can shoot it accurately.
It's very well made, has very few sharp edges to snag on clothing, and seems to fit into the "conceal" category without stretching the definition . I don't expect to get into a firefight situation with someone breaking in to my place. I think I can make direct contact once or twice before running out of ammo.If it's several intruders, give me a shotgun, and I will make contact. I never had trouble connecting with waterfowl 30 years ago, with a 16 gauge. In the dark , the shooter loses the ability to make an impression, "Dirty Harry" style, with most any handgun. Feel free to criticize.
My first post; will probably get blown off the forum.
Is the Sig Sauer P230SL or P232SL having too light a load, the reason no one seems to have mentioned them ? I've read that many police forces have used them as backup/CC.
I use the "most folks can't shoot a pistol very accurately" idea; I'm of course not suggesting that's the case for folks on this forum, but seems to apply to the population in general, including myself. I qualified at the U.S. Treasury schools, but before many of the posters were born.
I bought a new P230SL about 10 years ago. I've never shot it. The target that was included, suggests someone can shoot it accurately.
It's very well made, has very few sharp edges to snag on clothing, and seems to fit into the "conceal" category without stretching the definition . I don't expect to get into a firefight situation with someone breaking in to my place. I think I can make direct contact once or twice before running out of ammo.If it's several intruders, give me a shotgun, and I will make contact. I never had trouble connecting with waterfowl 30 years ago, with a 16 gauge. In the dark , the shooter loses the ability to make an impression, "Dirty Harry" style, with most any handgun.
Feel free to criticize.stevehenry1
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re blow-back guns--I think all Hi-points are blow-back, for what it's worth. My experience is Match Grade guns can be temperamental and require a lengthy break in. There is only one pistol I know of where it's accuracy is insufficient, and this is the WWII Liberator .45( no rifling)
I own and have been shooting a used Sig P228 and find it the most accurate pistol. They now make that model as a M11-A1 which I can only assume will shoot just as well. My P228 is most accurate, superior to my P226. I would check it out. The Sig shop is now offering special pricing on making a great gun even better with a few tweaks. Good luck.
You usually don't get bounced unless you're being nasty.
The OP is asking about a reliable pistol capable of target-grade accuracy. (Generally, that is <3.25" at 50-yards.) .380 pistols and ammunition are not considered for the reason the various posters have mentioned, viz. it is a self-defense caliber and the ammunition and guns are not intended to provide competition-type accuracy.
In most concealed-carry type environments, the myth that 1911s capable of producing this type of accuracy are not reliable is just that - a myth. The most accurate 1911s I have owned usually have been unfailingly reliable. But of course they must be properly maintained, and a lot of folks just won't take the time for the cleaning, lubrication, parts inspection, etc., that is needed to insure reliability. My .02 on that topic, and I would stick with my original theory that a custom fitted 9mm Commander would be a good choice, though I admit I would like to shoot a PC5906 some day just to see what they will do.
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smokey0118
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Special Forces Operator Larry Vickers on Accuracy | Tactical Minute - YouTube
ol' man vickers speaking on accuracy. I don't think wanting a gun that is more accurate than a stock m&p or glock is a bad thing, as accuracy deteriorates and any advantage is a good thing. I think the important thing to temper this wish for accuracy with is what is going to get you more accurate hits on target in a real-world sense, a gun that shoots 1" groups at 25 yds instead of 2-3"...or training to better learn how to shoot on the move, shoot around barriers, fight and deploy a gun at contact distances, and even to clear malfunctions/ shoot with your non-dominant hand? Unless you've REALLLLY covered the educational side, put in work to master fighting with a handgun, and regularly maintain those skills, those are going to be much more important things to worry about than a slight gain from hardware.
The other thing that is important that has been mentioned is the interface of the gun to the shooter. I know my brother's hkusp45 is more mechanically accurate than my m&p45. If I really....reallly take my time with it, I can print up a nice group. However, it just doesn't feel right running through IDPA or steel matches. When speed becomes a factor, my m&p fits my hands better and allows me to get more accurate hits on target faster. It's overall less complicated to operate(with fewer external controls) and has that consistent striker-fired trigger instead of a da/sa setup to overcome.
It's also important to understand the degree to which the OP is going to spend maintaining his firearms. If he truly wants a gun that is accurate AND reliable, that accuracy frequently comes with a price...both in terms of dollars and in time spent on the firearm. Accuracy is going to come from tight and consistent surfaces engaging the same way from shot to shot. It'll also come from quality components. You can have a properly fitted gun that is slick as snot and reliable, but often you must absolutely ensure that it is well-lubed all the time for those mating surfaces to glide past each other effectively. slightly less accurate guns may be more tolerant to running on the dry side...especially when dirty.
Of course, if accuracy and reliability are your goal and you don't care about hauling around a brick on your hip all day, the MK23 is one of the most accurate guns I've ever shot, ever... and has a pretty solid reputation for reliability to boot.
ol' man vickers speaking on accuracy. I don't think wanting a gun that is more accurate than a stock m&p or glock is a bad thing, as accuracy deteriorates and any advantage is a good thing. I think the important thing to temper this wish for accuracy with is what is going to get you more accurate hits on target in a real-world sense, a gun that shoots 1" groups at 25 yds instead of 2-3"...or training to better learn how to shoot on the move, shoot around barriers, fight and deploy a gun at contact distances, and even to clear malfunctions/ shoot with your non-dominant hand? Unless you've REALLLLY covered the educational side, put in work to master fighting with a handgun, and regularly maintain those skills, those are going to be much more important things to worry about than a slight gain from hardware.
The other thing that is important that has been mentioned is the interface of the gun to the shooter. I know my brother's hkusp45 is more mechanically accurate than my m&p45. If I really....reallly take my time with it, I can print up a nice group. However, it just doesn't feel right running through IDPA or steel matches. When speed becomes a factor, my m&p fits my hands better and allows me to get more accurate hits on target faster. It's overall less complicated to operate(with fewer external controls) and has that consistent striker-fired trigger instead of a da/sa setup to overcome.
It's also important to understand the degree to which the OP is going to spend maintaining his firearms. If he truly wants a gun that is accurate AND reliable, that accuracy frequently comes with a price...both in terms of dollars and in time spent on the firearm. Accuracy is going to come from tight and consistent surfaces engaging the same way from shot to shot. It'll also come from quality components. You can have a properly fitted gun that is slick as snot and reliable, but often you must absolutely ensure that it is well-lubed all the time for those mating surfaces to glide past each other effectively. slightly less accurate guns may be more tolerant to running on the dry side...especially when dirty.
Of course, if accuracy and reliability are your goal and you don't care about hauling around a brick on your hip all day, the MK23 is one of the most accurate guns I've ever shot, ever... and has a pretty solid reputation for reliability to boot.
man, those serrations on the slide are the perfect kuckle buster but Definitely not a good CCW (too easy to snag). The serrations are very similar to the S&W PC 945s (large dragon scale cuts).
jeffhughes
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Makes sense, the guy is a cop(and a master 1911 gunsmith)...
I think the wait list is now open...
For an accurate CCW that you can tuck in your pants and nearly forget its there - the Springfield EMP is pretty darn sweet. That said, I usually pack a 640 pro with .38 +P's. I'm not nearly as accurate with the 640, but if that first pull doesn't fire, just keep pulling. If I should ever have to use one, I want something damn near foolproof.
fungunnin
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Another vote for the P7M8! They are amazingly accurate. They are one of the very few fixed barrel 9mm guns out there. The gas delayed blowback system is inherently very accurate and I can make 100 center of mass shots at 100 yards ... Under range conditions.
I love single stack metal framed 9mms and I think the P7 family are some of the best.
Here is a family pic of all my single stack 9s. All have good accuracy, with the 225 the P5 and the P7M8 having the best accuracy.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
I love single stack metal framed 9mms and I think the P7 family are some of the best.
Here is a family pic of all my single stack 9s. All have good accuracy, with the 225 the P5 and the P7M8 having the best accuracy.
Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
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jonesy814
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Hi point pistols are all blow backs...380, 9mm, .40, and .45 calibers are available. Not saying they are good guns, but they are blow back designs. They're pretty accurate too,...and heavy
Stratajema
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The early Sig P938s had accuracy problems. Not sure if that has since been corrected.
tectrry
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FS M&P9
This photo is from the range this week. I used my FS M&P9, and I raise, sight and fire three shots, then put it down and repeat. The target was 7 yards and outside circle is 5.75" and the black circle is 3.875". This is accurate enough for me - and I've only been shooting since February.
My 9C/40C is just as accurate, but I was using the full size this week.
I should also mention that I put in the apex hard sear and the apex poly trigger to make the pistol feel the way it works best for me.
This photo is from the range this week. I used my FS M&P9, and I raise, sight and fire three shots, then put it down and repeat. The target was 7 yards and outside circle is 5.75" and the black circle is 3.875". This is accurate enough for me - and I've only been shooting since February.
My 9C/40C is just as accurate, but I was using the full size this week.
I should also mention that I put in the apex hard sear and the apex poly trigger to make the pistol feel the way it works best for me.
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olman
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Walther PPQ, 9mm.? Anyone?
Having just bought a M&P Pro CORE .40L I can say it will probably do what your asking. I put a Deltapoint on it and it shoots very accurately. It only misses because of me. I would imagine the 9's are as good. I think it is a great platform to get started with, that 10-8 site seems to have some nice stuff but at 2x the standard price I don't know how much more accurate it will shoot. You can always add a KKM barrel to it later, and the Apex trigger.
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kevin.andress
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Walther PPQ
bulldogman
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Looks like you already have some accurate guns in the CZ's. Have some trigger and hammer work at Cajun Gun Works and they'll tighten up even more.
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