Second Contract Russian

[jleiper]

I was taking pictures this morning and thought I would share. This is a 2nd model from the second contract (15 January 1873).

Side views of serial 26300

Serial number on the butt

Cyrillic line address: Smith and Wesson Weapons factory C(ity) Springfield America

The Imperial acceptance mark with the initials of Capitan Kasaverii Ordinetz (Касаверий Ординец)
More

 

[jleiper]

more pictures


The cylinder face


comparison pictures of the 1st and 2nd model hammers


The pointed trigger introduced with the trigger activated cylinder stop

The wider (.095 vs .115) cylinder pawl

Joe

 

[H Richard]

Very neat. I see it has the common malady of the good bluing on the frame and the faded patina on the cylinder and barrel. I've been told a couple times this is due to the difference in the heat treat of the metal and how the frame takes the bluing much better the heat treated parts back then. I have a couple #1's and #1 1/2's the same way.

 

[les.b]

What a beauty. It's interesting that Springfield was well enough known that they just had to stamp it (my translation): "Smith and Wesson Arms Factory City (of) Springfield America" no mention of Massachusetts"!!

Best Regards, Les

 

[les.b]

jleiper:

Please pardon my jumping in here, I know zero about these revolvers, but do know a little about Russian language. We must have been typing at the same time. While I was typing post #4, showing off my Russian, you were editing #1 post to add the same thing!! Sorry for any confusion, but when I first saw your posting, even though I'm not familiar with that particular model, I couldn't help but notice the way the Cyrillic stamping was phrased.

Very interesting firearm, and from a language standpoint it would be apparent that it was pre-revolutionary due to the orthography: the Cyrillic alphabet was changed in, I believe either 1917 or 1918, eliminating some of the letters that appear in the stamping on your revolver.

Best Regards, Les

 

[sw44russ]

Another very informative Post; I am very interested in these Models and it's great to see this key information so clearly laid out.

This is what makes the Forum such an invaluable resource and without folks with this specialized knowledge who are willing to take the time and effort to share, it would definitely not be the same.

Thanks Joe and as always, great to see more of your fabulous Collection!!

 

[jleiper]

The Russian language spelling reform took place in 1917 and went into effect on 01 January 1918. It forced the changes on all government printing establishments. Since the government soon controlled almost all printing, ... There are examples as late as about 1922 of the old alphabet still being used.


Serial No 29226
Here is another example of a second contract. Note that the serials on this contract run in the 20 and 30 thousand range - the only contract with serials above 20,000.

This piece is not in my collection, these pictures were taken at the Baltimore show - I have an arrangement with several major dealers who allow me to photograph their Russian contract pieces in order to gather information.



Side views

Serial number on the butt and cylinder face. Note the large cylinder ratchet face, one of the improvements appearing with the 2nd model.

The inspector's KO acceptance mark.
Joe

 

[DesmoEd]

Excellent info and superb photos as usual

Here is my Oct 1, 1875 shipped 2nd Russian

Would there shipping info on #29226?

Thanks, Ed

 

[jleiper]

Excellent info and superb photos as usual

Here is my Oct 1, 1875 shipped 2nd Russian

Would there shipping info on #29226?

Thanks, Ed

Does it have a Cyrillic line address and acceptance stamp? I also see an SH diamond mark, it is likely a commercial, not a contract revolver
Joe

 

[jleiper]

2nd model commercial Russian models were produced in a serial block of about 32800-39000 and in the upper end of the serial block allocated for the third model, 39000-52500. Remember that the second and third model Russian commercials were in production simultaneously as the Russian government was contracting for both models at the time.
Yours looks to be a commercial produced in the block allocated for 2nd model Russians.
Serials 50436 and 51682 are second model commercials in the upper end of the third model commercial serial number block.

Serial 51682

Serial 50436
IIRC both have 8 inch barrels and were marked Russian Model and had assembly numbers, not full serial numbers.
Joe

 

[DesmoEd]

Sorry for the confusion, didnt mean to imply mine was a contract piece.

It shipped 1875 to MW Robinson in a 130 pistol shipment specifically for delivery to H@G.

My inquiry was regarding shipping info on the contract pistols. What shipping info exists?

Beautiful blued examples you posted.

Thanks, Ed

 

[jleiper]

I was writing a response to DesmoEd and something struck me as a possible solution to the serial numbers found on these contracts:

I don't have a lot of shipping data (yet). With these it is hard just to identify which contract a revolver is really from!
What makes this difficult is that each separate contract is supposed to have started over with its own serial number block starting with 1 and going to the number of revolvers in the contract.

This turns out to not be true for at least one contract with 2nd model examples showing up in the 20 and 30 thousand serial number ranges.
It has been published that these examples with out of block serial numbers were numbered in the commercial series by accident. That doesn't make sense because when a 2nd model contract revolver with a 26-30 000 serial number was being manufactured, the commercial series was still 1st model. Additionally, there are too many examples seen with serial numbers above 20000 over too large a range for them to all be commercial serial errors (I personally have seen at least 5).

Now to throw a new spanner into the works!
It has been supposed that the second contract was serial numbered in sequence with the first contract 20001-40000. Then the numbering sequence was changed for all subsequent contracts. It is possible to identify the second and third contract 2nd model revolvers as they have the serial number on the face of the barrel extension instead of on top of the barrel rib, fourth contract revolvers are 3rd model and fifth contract revolvers are, again, 2nd model. Fifth contract 2nd models have the serial number on the top of the barrel rib and are still KO inspected.

Smith & Wesson seems to have had the habit of starting a new serial sequence with each new model. This would include the reissue revolvers and the New Model No.3 etc. The 2nd model reissues have their own serial block as do the 3rd model reissues.


Is it possible that the third contract is the one that is numbered 20001-40000? Then the 1st model would have its own serial block, 1-20000, the 2nd model Russian contracts would have their own block starting with the second contract 1-20000 continuing to the third contract 20001-40000 and then the next contract which was the first 3rd model contract would start over in a new serial number series for the third model 1-11138. This would be consistent with the numbering on other models and contracts at S&W at that time.

As usual, a lack of surviving examples makes it difficult to make sense of these!

The first contract for the 2nd model was 15 January 1873. The next contract was 15 December 1873. The next contract was for 11138 3rd models on 27 October 1874.
Joe

 

[mmaher94087]

"Is it possible..". For once, the Russian Contract serial numbers make sense to me. I can't answer your question but I believe you are correct. Thank You!

 

[jleiper]

Like I said it just hit me and made more sense than anything else that I've come up with. There are still lots of questions and even a whole contract that isn't properly accounted for.
If anyone is interested I will post more pictures and some guesses.
Joe

 

[Brian in SLC]

Please do!

 

[sw44russ]

Hell yes Joe!!

 

[JSR III]

I know absolutely nothing about these guns but am truly enjoying these very thought provoking discussions. I find this much more fascinating than "when was my gun shipped and what's it worth". I understand folks need for this information and mean no disrespect for them coming to the best source on the interweb but it is really nice to read a real meaty discussion from time to time by folks truly interested in unraveling some of the real S&W mysteries.

When and where were the Cyrillic markings placed on these guns? If at the factory, it is possible that frames were marked before the symbols in Russia were changed and this might explain why guns show up later than the symbols would explain. Again, just thinking out loud.

 

[jleiper]

I guess I will have to do a BIG piece on the Russian contracts. The Imperial Russian government was S&W's biggest customer buying approximately 140,000 revolvers between 1871 and 1878. The changes we see to the production of the American Model, the commercial Russian Model, and the military contracts (the REISSUE marked revolvers) were all changes requested by the Russian government for their revolvers and these changes overflowed into commercial production.
The Cyrillic marked revolvers were made in their own production series and inspected by Russian inspectors. The only crossover between the Commercial revolvers and the Russian contract revolvers was when a Russian contract failed inspection, it could be reworked, and sometimes remarked for domestic commercial sale.

A good example of these rejects was recently sold on gunbroker. It is a 2nd model with a Cyrillic address but no Russian acceptance. It has assembly marks instead of full serial numbers (serial number 24109 and assy no. 1437). It has the diamond SH on the butt and has been plated. So it was serialed on the butt and Cyrillic roll stamped, then failed inspection. Then it was repaired enough for commercial sale and then finished, assembly numbered, plated and sold to SH&G for the domestic market.

Joe

 

[sw44russ]

I guess it could be fair to say we have the Russians to thank for a lot of Improvements that ended up making the No.3 ultimately what many say is the finest Single Action Sixgun ever made.....

A Modern Big Cal Cartridge for starters, which evolved into the 44 Special and 44 Magnum.