Self defense gun sight in

[Wayne M]

I remember reading years ago about an expert wittness in a court case and for whatever reason he was asked to prove to the court that a shooter with a snub 38 was a deadly threat at 100 yards. When he had finished shooting all parties present decided that the shooter was justified when he returned fire from 100. Mass, if you're out there do I remember this essentially correctly?

Probably happen less than once a lifetime but if it's your lifetime things could get embarrassing quick.

Because the Police don't shoot at longer distance don't make the mistake of thinking they have the answers. Most of the recruits entering training today have little to no experience with firearms. Add to that the fact that when Deparments went to autos those 25 and 50 yard scores fell apart. Verify this if you can find any Instructors left from the era of the change over. I was active then and worked with a bunch of them. You can put too much emphasis on the long shots but it's good to be able to take them.

25 yards is a fine SIGHT IN distance but you need to know what you can do at everything from point blank to 100yards.

 

[szuppo]

We don't agree with you guys about being able to shoot out to 100 yds., so that makes us mall ninjas? I think that pretty much everyone in this thread has stated that the likelihood of needing to make such a shot is quite remote (of course I found that my silly, unrealistic 25 yd. zero managed to come in handy on a certain woodchuck, but whatever). Yet you seem unable to wrap your brain around the concept that having a longer range zero, so long as it doesn't hurt marksmanship at closer ranges, only gives one another tool that could be used, even if it is unlikely to be needed. Perhaps the "mall terrorist" at Trolley Square and Von Maur are just figments of our "mall ninja" fantasies. If I were in a mall and such an event went down I would leave if at all possible, but sometimes that can't be done if family members are elsewhere in the mall.

I find your post to be less than civil and your thinking less than logical.

I find your theory of taking a 100 yd. shot with a CCW in a public place to be both foolish and less than logical. In fact, I find it damn alarming......In a Mall no less..... spare me the dramatics.

 

[Jellybean]

So, as someone who is not really that familiar with ballistics calculations, I'd like to know how much energy is left in a .38 at point of impact at 100 yards? I would think that it would have to be an incredibly lucky shot to actually do stopping damage at that distance.

A .38 mid range with 158 gr. swc would have about 170 ft/lbs at 100 yds.
It would have had 200 ft/lbs at the muzzle.
The same loaded to +P pressures would have about 238 ft/lbs.
And it would have started with 278 ft/lbs.

As you can see they don't lose as much as many people think.

A shot with a handgun at any distance needs a certain amount of luck to do stopping damage.

 

[Jellybean]

The point is in a self defense situation or being shot at your adrenilen is pumping so hard there is no way you can shoot accuratly at most long distances and there for you are liable for where that bullet goes, the question was if I remember correctly is what distance would you sight you defenseive hand gun at.
My reply would be the same distances as a LEO which is as close as 3 feet doing a speed rock out to about 45 feet.

Pete

You are just as liable at 100 yards as you are at 1 foot and any shot is going to be hard under stress. That is why I go to the range and shoot at every distance I can, so I know what to expect in case it happens.

You are correct about the original question and my answer is still the same. I do not use my sights at all up to about 25 yds +/- and they are sighted in at 100 yds, which give them combat accuracy from 0 to about 125 yds, with most calibers.

If I'm going to arm myself with a weapon that is fully capable of saving my life at long range, why would I treat it as anything less? Just because the majority of shootings occur at 10 ft or less, does that mean that it is a good idea to train for nothing more? I see it's not a very popular idea around here, but I prefer to train to the highest limits of my, and my firearms, abilities. In a self defense situation I won't be the one naming the time, place or distance at which I might have to call on the only weapon I have available to save my life. And I certainly won't walk around with any weapon that I'm only partially trained to use.

I don't know how long you've been in law enforcement Pete, but there was a time when every officer had to fire from the 50 or 60 yard line to qualify. Now most of them can't hit the backstop from that distance, and I've seen some that can't hit the paper at 25 yards.

 

[Jellybean]

I find your theory of taking a 100 yd. shot with a CCW in a public place to be both foolish and less than logical. In fact, I find it damn alarming......In a Mall no less..... spare me the dramatics.

I have a rather large number of handguns, not all of them would be suitable for a 100 yard shot in a mall, but any of them that I carry would. I hate our mall and don't go to more than once every two or three years, but...If I happened to be there, and some whack job walked in with a semi automatic sporting rifle and started racking up a body count of children, old people and various other innocent people that he happened to see, and he happened to put himself between me and a solid wall...I really don't know if I could sleep at night if I had a firearm and didn't do anything to stop him. But then, I'm not that inexperienced with handguns to find it alarming. Plus the fact that it would be like taking a 25 yard shot to me, since I've trained for it. At least that's what all the tacticool experts tell me.

 

[pete950]

Well this is turning into an argument, I'm done I don't know your back ground but like I said earlier I'm going on 26 years with the rank of Lieutenant, and have had to make these split decisions on 3 occasions and have had to sit at the round table and justify my actions, in a shooting situation they look at you as your guilty till you, witnesses and evidence prove you inocent . Here is somthing for every one to try I run my Officers through once in a while, run in place for about 2-3 mins draw and fire your weapon at 21 feet and see what happens then go out to the dist that Jellybean is talking about. The run in place will boost the old blood presure up and simulate stress.

Pete

 

[szuppo]

I have a rather large number of handguns, not all of them would be suitable for a 100 yard shot in a mall, but any of them that I carry would. I hate our mall and don't go to more than once every two or three years, but...If I happened to be there, and some whack job walked in with a semi automatic sporting rifle and started racking up a body count of children, old people and various other innocent people that he happened to see, and he happened to put himself between me and a solid wall...I really don't know if I could sleep at night if I had a firearm and didn't do anything to stop him. But then, I'm not that inexperienced with handguns to find it alarming. Plus the fact that it would be like taking a 25 yard shot to me, since I've trained for it. At least that's what all the tacticool experts tell me.

I'm not arguing with you, but that last sentence tells me everything I need to know.

A 100 yard shot is now like taking a 25 yard shot to you? Under stress with a CCW in a Mall? Just so I'm reading this right...that is what you are implying? And you have tacticool "experts" tell you so?

I'll give you a wide berth if we ever encounter one another in this life time. As that Ninja Seal Ranger training may just kill me with a glance.
Put the movies away.....stop reading the monthly editions of "The Operator" and join the rest of us in reality.

In the perfect scenario that you describe where a suspect is racking up the body count with a semi auto rifle in a Mall, you're going to take a 100 yd shot at him? I'd hate to be someone near you when he returns fire or someone near him when you dump those rounds at him.........
I'm sure if he had a hostage you would take the head shot on him at that range too, I'm sure you've "trained" for it...
These discussions are often pointless and more amusing then informational.

A shot with a handgun at any distance needs a certain amount of luck to do stopping damage.

Really? What's the one shot stop statistics on the .357 Magnum? 93-97% if I recall correctly. Must be a lucky number of Officers out there...That statement alone is ridiculous.

Plus the fact that it would be like taking a 25 yard shot to me, since I've trained for it. At least that's what all the tacticool experts tell me.

What I've learned over the years is that those who announce to the world how their skills are so superior or how great they are at anything........usually aren't.



I'm out.......Semper Fi!

 

[ASA335]

I'm with Jellybean on this one.

I'm reminded of the two police officers that were pinned down in an open parking lot by a guy wielding a rifle from 75 yards out. They had never trained past 25 yards, so they didn't have the skill or knowledge to pin him down or make hits (I recall Mas told of this event in one of his famous examples).

Jellybean practices out to as far as 100 yards. He knows taking a shot in self defense is unlikely at that distance, but he knows that if he can hit the target (I assume a silhouette) at that distance it also means it's easier for him to hit the target at lesser distances. I'm sure he shoots at these lesser distances also, to verify. He's not saying to expect threats or that you should engage at this distance, but that training out to that distance can be a plus; also that zeroing at this distance has little effect on point of aim at mid-range for the guns/ammo that he uses for self defense (and I know this can be true).

I believe he recognizes the risks (both criminal and civil) of taking long range shots, but given the right "totality of circumstances" he is prepared to attempt such a shot to defend himself and others – because he trains for such.

When I was shooting for an Army team, I used to demonstrate that an arms-room issue M1911A1 could be used at 100 yards with minimal shift in point of aim. I could put seven out of seven into a standard silhouette target (torso) – not what I would call a group, but they were all in the torso. I would also occasionally demonstrate that it was possible to go out to 200 yards with my .357 magnum at the same type of target.

I (and Jellybean probably) understand that under stress our skill at any distance is degraded. One of the Army matches I used to shoot was called the George S. Patton Jr. Match. It entailed running two miles in field uniform, with helmet and load bearing equipment with full canteen, firearm, magazines, ammo and any other gear we would use on the firing line. At the end of the two mile run we had little time to setup to engage our targets at 25 yards. I shot this match three times in the mid-day heat and humidity of Panama. Though my 25 yard score suffered because of this run, my scores were better than most (100% hits on target, but not a tight group) because I practiced out to 100 yards – if you can hold true at 100 you can hold truer at 25.

The above was/is true for me in the "run in place for 2 – 3 minutes" drill. Yep, my groups aren't as tight, but they are still (mostly) in the "A" zone.

Give Jellybean some credit for his training out to 100 yards. If you give it a try and really think about it, it does have some merit. We live within our limitations, but many of our limitations are established by us. I'd ask that you extend your shooting limitations.

 

[pete950]

Szuppo,
I'm not one for putting things in words but you nailed it right on the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said Jellybean run in place for about 2-3 mins then take your 100 yard shot and see what happens.

Pete

 

[ENGINE18]

I gotta go with the "I can't even see a target at 100 yards!" Guess I'm screwed! Here I thought I was doing good at 15 yards w/the wheelies I CC; 638, 640, and 64 snubbie!

 

[flop-shank]

I find your theory of taking a 100 yd. shot with a CCW in a public place to be both foolish and less than logical. In fact, I find it damn alarming......In a Mall no less..... spare me the dramatics.

I don't give a crap what you think.

 

[flop-shank]

Well this is turning into an argument, I'm done......

O.K. I'll agree to that. I'm out of here too. I think both sides have expressed their opinions and the O.P. has what he needs to make a decision regarding how to zero his 4" 66, a gun capable of 100 yd. shots in the right hands.

 

[writerinmo]

Yep, I agree... sight it in an 25 yards and then shoot it at shorter and longer distances so you know how it performs. Then shoot it offhanded. Then with a mirror over your shoulder. Might as well figure out how much you have to adjust your point of aim to hit someone at a mile, since someday somewhere a terrorist might be shooting at you with his sniper rifle and you feel the need to return fire instead of getting the hell out of there. Poke yourself in the eye with a stick so you can practice that way... hell, might as well shoot yourself in the leg with it then target practice so you can see if you can hit anything after you are wounded. Makes as much sense as sighting in a handgun at 100 yards.

And just as a point, jellybean, I don't by any means consider myself 'the world's greatest marksman', but I am a damn fine shot. Grew up on a farm and put a lot of meat on the table, 15 years in the military carrying and shooting everything from the M16, 1911,9mm and TOW missile, and only qualified less than expert once, when they issued us spankin new M16 that were junk and I couldn't get mine to eject better than four out of ten, grabbed my LT.'s rifle and adjusted point of aim and shot well enough to qualify so we could get back to the barracks. Even at 50 years old, if someone would stand still long enough to take aim with a handgun at 100 yards, I would have no problem having the skill to drop them where they stand, since we regularly shot out past 300 meters.

 

[celticfisherman]

Dadgum... 6 pages on how far to sight in at???

Hey Flop-Shank---- 2 1/2" model 66!!!! Got a 4" 19 though...

Everyone makes good points here. I think my approach needs to be lots of practice at both close range and to 25yds. I think it is valuable to know what your gun will do out to 100yds if you plan on carrying it in the wilderness. And I will...

Thanks!

 

[Jellybean]

Szuppo,
I'm not one for putting things in words but you nailed it right on the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said Jellybean run in place for about 2-3 mins then take your 100 yard shot and see what happens.

Pete

Pete, physical and emotional stress are not exactly the same. But if you practice either one you can learn to control the effects. Such as the guy that runs a mile every day will not be affected by running 2-3 minutes as much as the guy that sits in front of his TV set chomping on Cheetos. Similarly a person that gets into difficult sitations and learns to keep calm will do better than someone who gets irate and starts to call others names.

szuppo, since you are out of here there is no reason to reply to your ranting. However, I did happen to notice you live in Boardman, Ohio, dude we are almost neighbors. I haven't done any real shooting in about five years due to a disabling injury, but I've been wanting to get back out and see how bad I've fallen behind, but I don't have any shooting buddies to help me. If you're interested, and happen to read this, let me know. (If you're thinking I'm making excuses already, I used to shoot at the Grand River shooting range in Trumbull Co. there was a range officer named Bob that used to watch me shoot, my name is Rod.)

ASA335, you are my new best friend! I may not be the best at writing what I'm thinking but at least someone gets it.

flop, thanks for your support, and even if it's not support, thanks for agreeing with me.

My remarks about "expert training" were sarcasm aimed at the "modern experts". The best book I ever read was "Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting" by Ed McGivern, not only did he give some real good information about shooting that proved invaluable for shooting at 100 yds. he said that he did what he did to prove to all the "know it alls" that the handgun was capable of much more than most people think. I find it odd that sixty years later we have forgotten all about him.

 

[pete950]

Jellybean,
I'm not wanting to argue with anyone on this forum.
But can you tell us your back ground.

Pete

 

[Jellybean]

Right now it's a big ol back yard with a medium sized garden,a trampoline for the grand daughter and a two car garage that's full of tools and assorted junk, not to mention my old Wheel Horse lawn tractor, boy I love that thing. And if you go back far enough in my back ground you'll find the Mahoning River.

And my background is pretty much just as boring, Associates degree in Criminal Justice, 27 years in law enforcement, most of which was part time, and a lifetime of studying police shootings and law enforcement firearms training techniques. I was a certified requalification officer for about eight years and a ceritided Arson investigator for about 25, there are some other training certificates in there also, but they're only good for toilet paper now. I own about 100 handguns and about 50 long guns, I handload extensively and have done a lot of experimenting with ammunition and various shooting techniques. I also learned long ago that when someone says they can do something I can't do or can't understand, to shup up and listen so I might learn how to do it too, instead of making a new enemy and saying it can't be done, or to call them names like "mall ninja". I had an I.Q. of 197 but that was before my injury and eating morphine, and a handful of other pills and shots, is taking their toll. Since my retirement I stopped hanging around police officers because I learned to hate most of the ones I knew, not all, but most, due to their attitudes and that is why I don't have the little badgey icon next to my name.

There you have it, but I really don't see what it has to do with how far I zero my handguns in for.

flop-shank- see, I told you so, he wasn't done at all.

 

[pete950]

Well we have about the same amount of time on the job the one thing I never called you any names thats not my style and like I said I don't want to argue with any one on the forum. maybe we could agree on one thing we ave two different schools of thought and we come from two different area's or even era's of lawenforcement.

Good luck with injury was it on the job?
Even though you dont show that you were a LEO or don't get along anymore with the LEO' s you know you are still a brother and if I personally knew you and lived close to you I would pick you up take you to the range and who knows we could mix up those 2 schools of shooting,
I'm alway's game and alway's wanting to make new friends.

Well if you ever need anything in the Chicago land area contact me!!

Pete

 

[writerinmo]

I don't really recall anyone saying that it couldn't be done, just that it was an unlikely scenario.

 

[tpd223]

I zero at the 25 yard line, this is the farthest we qualify at, and keeps the trajectory very flat on anything I carry from 0-50.

I have shot my 9mm out to the 200 just to do it, hitting at that distance is a matter of knowing the hold-over and breaking the trigger clean.

Just because various LEO agencies are watering down the qual course for lowest common denominator purposes doesn't make it a good idea. Just the opinion of an LEO firearms instructor for the past 23 years.

In Oklahoma they still qual to the 50, which makes a lot of the troops bitch, but the last I talked to the rangemaster for OKCPD they had a 75% hit rate in real life OISs.
Down in that neighborhood they had an off-duty officer involved in taking out a shooter at the local mall, 57 yards IIRC.

During the North Hollywood fight the first bad guy was shot through the neck by an LAPD patrolman, 77 yards out, with a Beretta 92.

A Air Force SP took out an active shooter with an AK at 71 yards, again with a Beretta.

Back in the day when all I had was a 4" .357mag and a Remington 870 with #4 buck I practiced out to the 100 with my duty weapon since that was all I had if I got into a long range fight with a bad guy with a rifle.
Elmer Keith had some good advice on how to make hits at distance.

As for CCW weapons, I have a friend who can, on demand, hit a pepper-popper at the 200 with his Glock 33 using 125gr Gold Dot.

It all depends on the shooter.