When did Smith stop putting the gun serial number on the cylinder and the back of the ejector star? Hope this is the right spot for the question. SN on the cylinder is 163250 followed by an S and a diamond shape.
Serial Number on Cylinder?
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According to SCSW, serial numbers on hand ejectors were stamped on the frame, barrel flat, cylinder face, yoke, behind the extractor star, and on the right grip panel (in addition to the butt, of course) through the late 50s. Starting about 1960, the serial numbering was replaced by assembly numbers in generally the same areas, being reduced to only on the frame and sideplate after about 1988.
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When model numbers were assigned the numbered parts went away (more or less, as completed parts were used up), so about 1957. What type of revolver do you have?
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In May 1957 S&W stopped putting the butt serial number on the rear surface of the cylinder and on the barrel when the Soft Fitting operation was discontinued. However, many guns were in the pipeline and shipped after this time. Your revolver most likely dates 1956 and was made before this change was made. S&W continued to number the extractor well into the 70s.
Bill
Bill
Georgia1911
Member
I have read that S with a diamond probably indicates the gun was reworked or repaired at S&W. I have an M&P 38 Special (pre Model 10) so marked that also shows the RS stamp and date on the frame indicating it was refinished by S&W. Mine also has the S diamond under the barrel.
Bill, I have nothing but respect for your knowledge, but I have two K-38s from 1956 and a K-22 from very early 1957 (no model number) and none of them have serial numbers on the cylinder or barrel. My 1952 Combat Masterpiece has both. So is it possible the phase-out started earlier than your post suggests? I seem to have evidence that it did.
Thanks.
It is from a K-Frame but I only have the cylinder assembly and 2" barrel.
It was purchased as being from a model 15 years ago. I was going to convert a 4" to 2". Had the hots for a snub K-Frame, but never moved on the project. I thought it was of a '70's vintage and didn't really pay that much attention to the SN. So I'm surprised it is of a pre-'57 vintage. Has a nice high gloss finish.
It was purchased as being from a model 15 years ago. I was going to convert a 4" to 2". Had the hots for a snub K-Frame, but never moved on the project. I thought it was of a '70's vintage and didn't really pay that much attention to the SN. So I'm surprised it is of a pre-'57 vintage. Has a nice high gloss finish.
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The number would be out of sequence for a model 15 if the S is part of it. A numbered .38 Combat Masterpiece cylinder with 6 digits should have a K instead of an S stamped on it. Can you post a photo?
It is on the Acess/Misc for sale section. http://smith-wessonforum.com/access.../390616-2-k-frame-barrel-cylinder-38-spl.html
I two model 66's, one is a 2K with only a V stamped on the rear of the cylinder, the other is a newer 9K that has the complete serial # stamped on the rear of the cylinder along with a Diamond and the V.
The 9 K was sent back to the factory for a re-barrel back in the late 1970's
If I remember correctly the serial number & Diamond were added to the rear of the cylinder at that time.
So, If I am correct there may be other S&W's out there with the serial # on the cylinder that do not fit within the dating system of these stampings by the factory.
The 9 K was sent back to the factory for a re-barrel back in the late 1970's
If I remember correctly the serial number & Diamond were added to the rear of the cylinder at that time.
So, If I am correct there may be other S&W's out there with the serial # on the cylinder that do not fit within the dating system of these stampings by the factory.
Hey Doc, I understand May, 1957 was a standout date in the history of S&W.
If the factory stopped the Sn. on the cyl., why did they continue to stamp the star? I dont see the logic, but maybe there is none. The factory may have done a lot of procedures that have no logic. If the logic escapes you, that fine. If there is a production based explanation, I would like to know. Best,
Mike2796
If the factory stopped the Sn. on the cyl., why did they continue to stamp the star? I dont see the logic, but maybe there is none. The factory may have done a lot of procedures that have no logic. If the logic escapes you, that fine. If there is a production based explanation, I would like to know. Best,
Mike2796
larryofcc
Member
I have a very late M53,an unmarked M53-2, shipped 11-1974, that has the serial number stamped into the face of the cylinder under the ejector. Very small numbers. Big Larry
I hope this will address a few lingering questions, sorry for some redundancy to other member's posts:
Decreasing Serial # locations:
(the Russians 1st required multi-locations on their S&W #3 contract revolvers) began May 1, 1957 when S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation over a transition period from 6 locations to only 3; butt, back of right stock (until mid '70s), and extractor star (until c. 1980. Then in the yoke cut starting 1959 eventually just on butt of grip frame, and yoke cut. But guns in process or in inventory as of 5/1/57 can still have more than 3 and up to 6 locations.
“When S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation on May 1, 1957, they stopped routinely stamping the serial number on the barrel, cylinder & yoke arm. Many guns shipped after this time will be numbered because assembly was done in advance and inventory using the old process had to be used up.” Bill (Doc44)
Extractor star:
"...were numbered from the early Hand Ejector models through about 1980. They were numbered because the ratchet lugs had been fitted to each particular gun's lockwork, and it would be separated from the gun at some points of finishing. This is true for blue, nickel, and stainless guns.” Regards, Lee Jarrett
There are exceptions like anything S&W, but when the extractor stamping ceased c. 1980, only the butt and yoke cut stamping locations remain to this day.
Assembly (factory work) #s:
Other multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke, yoke cut in frame near the hinge and inside of the sideplate, pre war and early post war; the frame # in the yoke cut, changing to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and also serial #s were stamped in the yoke cut. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3* locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.
Model Number Stamping Nuances:
stamping began eventually, after being ordered June 12, 1957, but the serial number was not stamped in the yoke cut, the frame side of the yoke hinge, until late 1959 or early 1960, and then it was only stamped there when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. Soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the yoke cut on all models, except on some smaller guns where it just didn't fit. When stamped in the yoke cut, the frame assembly # from the yoke cut was moved to the left side of the grip frame.
Note: Smith and Wesson dates of change are never absolute and there was most always a transition period for changes. The date of production and the date of shipment from the factory will vary from a short time to quite a long time. A 'letter' will pinpoint the ship date but only the features of a gun will help pinpoint the actual production period.
Decreasing Serial # locations:
(the Russians 1st required multi-locations on their S&W #3 contract revolvers) began May 1, 1957 when S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation over a transition period from 6 locations to only 3; butt, back of right stock (until mid '70s), and extractor star (until c. 1980. Then in the yoke cut starting 1959 eventually just on butt of grip frame, and yoke cut. But guns in process or in inventory as of 5/1/57 can still have more than 3 and up to 6 locations.
“When S&W eliminated the Soft Fitting Operation on May 1, 1957, they stopped routinely stamping the serial number on the barrel, cylinder & yoke arm. Many guns shipped after this time will be numbered because assembly was done in advance and inventory using the old process had to be used up.” Bill (Doc44)
Extractor star:
"...were numbered from the early Hand Ejector models through about 1980. They were numbered because the ratchet lugs had been fitted to each particular gun's lockwork, and it would be separated from the gun at some points of finishing. This is true for blue, nickel, and stainless guns.” Regards, Lee Jarrett
There are exceptions like anything S&W, but when the extractor stamping ceased c. 1980, only the butt and yoke cut stamping locations remain to this day.
Assembly (factory work) #s:
Other multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke, yoke cut in frame near the hinge and inside of the sideplate, pre war and early post war; the frame # in the yoke cut, changing to the left side of grip frame after model #s were assigned and also serial #s were stamped in the yoke cut. You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3* locations that always match on guns that are original, and that’s the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.
Model Number Stamping Nuances:
stamping began eventually, after being ordered June 12, 1957, but the serial number was not stamped in the yoke cut, the frame side of the yoke hinge, until late 1959 or early 1960, and then it was only stamped there when the revolver model was shipped with target stocks as standard. Soon after, serial #s were stamped on the frame in the yoke cut on all models, except on some smaller guns where it just didn't fit. When stamped in the yoke cut, the frame assembly # from the yoke cut was moved to the left side of the grip frame.
Note: Smith and Wesson dates of change are never absolute and there was most always a transition period for changes. The date of production and the date of shipment from the factory will vary from a short time to quite a long time. A 'letter' will pinpoint the ship date but only the features of a gun will help pinpoint the actual production period.
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All "dating systems" are 'out the window' once returned to the factory for rework. Stampings are then at the whim of the workman to facilitate getting all the original and replaced parts back together on your gun.
A diamond added to your cylinder could indicate it was replaced, refitted and/or refinished. If the parts leave the service dept., and are separated from the gun to go to the bluing dept., those marks tell the finishers it's not a new production cyl and it goes back to service, not to new gun assembly.
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An S followed by diamond was one of the ways S&W indicated a refinish in S&W blue on the individual part or in the diamond, a part in inventory installed in the service dept., and variations of both or more:
Refinish/Rework Dates:
for a return to the factory are 3 or 4 digits depending on the actual date (sometimes 5 or 6) placed on left side of grip frame on the 'toe' stamped vertically or horizontally, and will not match any other stamped #s. Ex: 3.48 for March 1948, 10.2.57 for Oct 2, 1957, etc. Usage declined in the early 1960s.
Usually letters in a rectangle or diamond, B (blue), N (nickel), or S (standard/blue) with an R (for refinish), on 'heel' of left side of grip frame.
Photo thx to Colby Bruce.
Photo thx to Masterpiece.
R stamp:
“The "R" [under barrel of a Transistional Kit Gun for example] indicates an “in house” rework of the revolver [on a gun that never shipped and therefore would not have a date stamp as opposed to rework on a customer gun]. The gun was reconditioned probably after World War II before the factory could sell it.” Roy Jinks
Diamonds/circles:
were stamped on replaced parts or heel of grip frame on left side for refinish followed by letters, sometimes in a rectangle or diamond, B (blue), N (nickel), or S (standard/blue) with an R (for refinish), on 'heel' of left side of grip frame. A circle under the barrel can also indicate that the barrel was replaced.
Photo thx to Colby Bruce.
Photo thx to SebagoSon
Parts modified by the factory:
on a new gun like a shortened barrel BEFORE originally being shipped can have a diamond stamp sometimes with an S inside indicating service dept. work, but no rework date! There might also be marks like <S> (silver), <G> (gold), or a P (plated) with a circle.
A Diamond can mean:
"Parts on Hand"- i.e. replacement parts sold out the door.
A part replaced by the factory.
I believe I have seen it applied to a barrel or two shortened at the factory. I think it can mean a gun that had service work done- just like the Star was used.
Service Dept. Refinish:
An S on the grip frame usually means 'Service Dept.' and was added when the factory fixed cosmetic or mechanical problems found on completed guns. S let the bluing dept. know that it needed to be returned to Service instead of the Fitters like the other ~200 barrels that they blued with it. Parts were blued in large batches.
So as you can see, this is not an exact science.
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Jack...I don't know why your revolvers are stamped that way. The 1956 revolver would have gone through the soft fitting process for sure and the early 1957 revolver most likely did also. Maybe there is something in S&W's manufacturing history we have missed and K-frames and N-frames were treated differently. The early Combat Magnums made in 1956 are all numbered on the barrel, cylinder, yoke, etc.
Mike...Again, no answer, only that S&W did continue to number the extractor.
Bill
Mike...Again, no answer, only that S&W did continue to number the extractor.
Bill
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It looks to be a cylinder with numbers stamped on it after initial production, perhaps after a refinish or as a replacement part.
Hello Doc/Bill, thanks for reply to my extractor Sn. inquiry. I got a fair answer to a subjective question. Best, Mike 2796
Hi Dick, thx for your WW II service!
That's cool, the only 6" with round butt grip frame 22/32 J frame we'll likely ever see!
Is the barrel serial numbered?
If the barrel does not have a matching serial number to the gun it was likely done outside the factory,
especially if there are no other stampings like date and star. The serial numbered cyl may have come
that way originally if no diamond stamped on it.
That's cool, the only 6" with round butt grip frame 22/32 J frame we'll likely ever see!
Is the barrel serial numbered?
If the barrel does not have a matching serial number to the gun it was likely done outside the factory,
especially if there are no other stampings like date and star. The serial numbered cyl may have come
that way originally if no diamond stamped on it.
