Serial number plaque gone

[cghelton]

Hey guys,
Has anyone ever seen this happen. Got back from shooting with my son last week end and was getting ready to clean our guns and noticed the plaque thing that holds the serial number was gun from my sons 15-22.
I'm thinking how the h*ll did that just fall off?

Has anyone ever seen that? I called smith yesterday and the guy I talked to said he had never heard of that happening before. He did said they wouldn't restamp it. So I'
m at a loss here. He said everyone that deals with anything like that was gone for the day and would call me back tomorrow.(today) Bought the rifle in 2/15/2013 and have the serial # written down.
I've included a pic.

[/IMG]

 

[murphydog]

I'm not sure if the serial number is stamped elsewhere on the gun, but this sounds like a situation to call factory customer service ASAP (edit to add: with a supervisor, as Scott suggested) and ask them how to fix this.

 

[MichiganScott]

Hey guys,
Has anyone ever seen this happen. Got back from shooting with my son last week end and was getting ready to clean our guns and noticed the plaque thing that holds the serial number was gun from my sons 15-22.
I'm thinking how the h*ll did that just fall off?

Has anyone ever seen that? I called smith yesterday and the guy I talked to said he had never heard of that happening before. He did said they wouldn't restamp it. So I'
m at a loss here. He said everyone that deals with anything like that was gone for the day and would call me back tomorrow.(today) Bought the rifle in 2/15/2013 and have the serial # written down.
I've included a pic.

[/IMG]

I'm not sure if the serial number is stamped elsewhere on the gun, but this sounds like a situation to call factory customer service ASAP and ask them how to fix this.

The OP already called customer service. He still needs help. I'd call again and ask for a supervisor. I wouldn't want a rifle with an altered serial number.

 

[NYlakesider]

The OP already called customer service. He still needs help. I'd call again and ask for a supervisor. I wouldn't want a rifle with an altered serial number.

I wouldn't want a rifle with an altered OR MISSING serial number.

Double that after putting it on here or any open forum. I will bet you my 1/2 of the Brooklyn Bridge that many state and Federal alphabet agencies read forums as part of their job.

 

[cghelton]

Yes,I called them yesterday. Think I'm going to go ahead and call and ask for a supervisor like someone suggested.

 

[cghelton]

Hey guys,
Got a call back from Matthew as promised around noon today. They're going to take care of me!!WOOHOO. Told me to send it in. They're paying for shipping both ways as well.
That's awesome customer service I have to say!!

 

[murphydog]

I suspected they would do the right thing, glad it worked out for you!

 

[Comrad]

I can't believe they would not engrave this into the frame. If it can fall off I bet it can be removed for nefarious reasons and that's just not good.

 

[Gunhacker]

I suspect S&W doesn't actually make the lower receiver, and they affix the S/N plate when the rifle is assembled?

But this brings up the question in my mind about whether or S&W would be in hot water with the BATF as a manufacturer, possibly not being in compliance with a BATF regulation regarding how the S/N has to be put on the receiver.

I'm kind of surprised at S&W's initial complacency regarding a s/n plate coming off, if it can happen to one gun due to some kind of defect, it can happen to others.

When you get the gun back, post back how it was fixed... being polymer I would guess another plate affixed.

 

[cghelton]

Good points brought up..I can't believe its not engraved. I didn't even think to ask how it was going to be put on there. I guess I was too excited when they said they' were fixing it..LOL
I'll post up when I get it back and let you guys know how they fixed it.

Thanks!

 

[telero]

I don't know of any instance where the serial number is not engraved in metal. Since this isn't a metal lower (and there are many other non-metal frames/receivers out there as well), it seems to be common industry practice to engrave a metal plate and attach it. It seems likely that any manufacturer using non-metal frames are required to have an engraved piece of metal, and a variance from ATF that allows them to attach that to the actual firearm.

 

[Bullet Bob]

Like Glock, or S&W M&P's.

 

[sithlord]

ATF requires the serial number stamped or engraved in metal. For polymer lowers, they require the plate to be virtually non removable without serious damage to the frame.

This would apply to 80% polymer lowers that are eventually sold or SBR'd as well.....

 

[BigWaylon]

ATF requires the serial number stamped or engraved in metal. For polymer lowers, they require the plate to be virtually non removable without serious damage to the frame.

This would apply to 80% polymer lowers that are eventually sold or SBR'd as well.....

Do you have a statute to back that up? I'm not asking that as being argumentative...I've just heard it several times and can't find it.

Closest I could find was this:

§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch;

I know they specify the "in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed" but I haven't been able to find where they actually say "in metal".

 

[sithlord]

Do you have a statute to back that up? I'm not asking that as being argumentative...I've just heard it several times and can't find it.

Closest I could find was this:

§ 479.102 How must firearms be identified?
(a) You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows:
(1) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured, imported, or made on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch;

I know they specify the "in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed" but I haven't been able to find where they actually say "in metal".

I can't find a ruling per se, however, there is this, from:

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

27 CFR Parts 178 and 179

[T.D. ATF-461; Ref: Notice No. 877]
RIN 1512-AB84


Identification Markings Placed on Firearms (98R-341P)

AGENCY: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), Department of
the Treasury.

ACTION: Final rule, Treasury decision.


IV. Analysis of Comments/Final Rule
C. Miscellaneous
...
markings placed in soft materials such as aluminum or zinc alloys, and especially plastics, are comparatively easy to remove compared to markings in steel. As such, ATF has required manufacturers and importers who use polymer plastic frames to mark serial numbers in a steel plate embedded within the plastic.



Also, there were polymer lowers from Plum Crazy that were found to be illegal due to easy removal of the serial number.

 

[BigWaylon]

Thanks!

I know I've seen it mentioned numerous times in various forums...and every polymer firearm I have has the SN on a metal part. Just don't think I've seen that letter.

 

[wbear]

On a side note.
20 years ago mfg's used to be able to destroy a customers defective frame, restamp the same serial on a new one and return it to said customer. Nice because no FFL or his fee was required and everyone was happy.

S&W told me that ATF no longer allows that and a new serial and FFL paper work is required.

 

[1hatchet]

My thoughts are that you will be receiving a new firearm.

 

[Buckshot Barry]

On a side note.
20 years ago mfg's used to be able to destroy a customers defective frame, restamp the same serial on a new one and return it to said customer. Nice because no FFL or his fee was required and everyone was happy.

S&W told me that ATF no longer allows that and a new serial and FFL paper work is required.

I had a frame replaced on a Glock 17 from Glock Inc, Smyrna. New serial number and I did not have to fill out a 4473, provide my drivers license, or Georgia Carry Permit.

 

[telero]

On a side note.
20 years ago mfg's used to be able to destroy a customers defective frame, restamp the same serial on a new one and return it to said customer.

S&W told me that ATF no longer allows that and a new serial and FFL paper work is required.

S&W is half correct. They can't replace the firearm with a new one that has the same serial number. They can replace it with a firearm ("same kind and type") with a different serial number without paperwork form the owner. They have to note it in their records.

This information can be found in ATF Ruling 74-20