Severe leading

[C17]

So since the ammo shortage I have been reloading my 625-8 45 ACP and 45 Autorim with 200 grain SWC hard cast lubed bullets. I am having severe leading issues in the cylinder and barrel. To clean it I had to use a dremel and a wire wheel to clean the cylinder and barrel. I tried lead remover with little success and had to use a dental pick to remove chunks that had built up around the forcing cone.
I clean the gun very well and only shot about 300 rounds yesterday. Any advice? Will Plated Berry's bullets lead? I really dont want to switch to FMJ since I already have 2,000 rounds loaded with cast.

 

[arjay]

I bet if you drop one of those bullets in the cylinder it falls right through.Give it a try.

 

[BW64]

What speed are you shooting them. For best results with lead stay below 900 fps. Lead around the cone usually means too large diameter bullet & it's shaving off or could be a slight timing problem.. But lead all the way down could mean too small or not enough lube. Are these commercial or your own casts? I run the same bullet(my home cast & lube) thru my PT1911 with no lead problems.




BW

 

[Maximumbob54]

You just said "hard cast" in that post. There isn't a thing about .45 ACP that needs a hard bullet. High pressure loads like .357 magnum need hard cast bullets with a harder lube. Your bullets need to be lead with a little tin to help fill out and a soft lube like 50/50 and sized to .452" or .453" assuming as posted already your cylinder throat isn't over spec. Then you may need to slug them to see how over size they need to be. If you are buying commercial cast then make sure they don't list antimony in the alloy are list them as "hard cast" bullets and if they only use a hard waxy lube then they may still lead anyways. It's hard to ship commercial cast with a softer lube so they like to use the harder wax lubes.

 

[Maximumbob54]

I forgot plated. If you crimp too hard and break through the plating they will likely lead the bore and have terrible accuracy. There shouldn't be a standard .45 ACP load you can load that will push the bullet too fast to strip the plating and lead the bore. You want to use load data for either higher lead bullet loads or lower jacketed bullet loads. Dont' start too low in lead as copper has more friction than the lubed lead and you may have a bullet stay in the bore and don't use anything but lower jacketed data as the plating is very thin and pressure needs to be low enough to not have the plating shear off in the rifling.

 

[novalty]

You can use Chore Boy (make sure it is all copper wire), you cut the wire and wrap it around a cotton mop and slide through your barrel. Or Lewis Lead remover kits for removing lead deposits.

 

[C17]

I bet if you drop one of those bullets in the cylinder it falls right through.Give it a try.

They are supposed to drop through the cylinder aren't they? The barrel no, but the cylinder.

 

[C17]

What speed are you shooting them. For best results with lead stay below 900 fps. Lead around the cone usually means too large diameter bullet & it's shaving off or could be a slight timing problem.. But lead all the way down could mean too small or not enough lube. Are these commercial or your own casts? I run the same bullet(my home cast & lube) thru my PT1911 with no lead problems.




BW

They are chronoing at 840 fps. They are match grade bullets from midatlantic bullet. They are .452 in diameter. The leading the barrel only occurs in the first inch and a half from the forcing cone

 

[amazingflapjack]

I have that gun. I would check the size of the cylinder throats/barrel as arjay intimates above, along with the other suggestions regarding the load etc. If the timing is off, it could cause problems. Having to use extreme measures to get it clean, as you stated, tells us that there is something, probably a combination of things, WRONG. I shoot only lead bullets; mostly moderately hard cast, with great results. I suggest you start from scratch. Changing bullet type ain't gonna' fix whatever you have, in my view.

I shoot Mid Atlantic bullets. The folks there (Bob) have been helpful to me in the past in diagnosing problems. A top quality outfit in my experience.

 

[arjay]

They are supposed to drop through the cylinder aren't they? The barrel no, but the cylinder.

They should hang up just a bit in the front of the cylinder,if they don't you need a slightly bigger bullet.

 

[Maximumbob54]

They are supposed to drop through the cylinder aren't they? The barrel no, but the cylinder.

No. The throat is the gas seal before the bullet moves from the chamber to the bore. You need that sealed or the heated expanding gas will go around the bullet and you lose pressure and end up with a leaded forcing cone.

 

[C17]

You just said "hard cast" in that post. There isn't a thing about .45 ACP that needs a hard bullet. High pressure loads like .357 magnum need hard cast bullets with a harder lube. Your bullets need to be lead with a little tin to help fill out and a soft lube like 50/50 and sized to .452" or .453" assuming as posted already your cylinder throat isn't over spec. Then you may need to slug them to see how over size they need to be. If you are buying commercial cast then make sure they don't list antimony in the alloy are list them as "hard cast" bullets and if they only use a hard waxy lube then they may still lead anyways. It's hard to ship commercial cast with a softer lube so they like to use the harder wax lubes.

Hard cast meaning bullets from Midatlanticbullets. They are match grade .452 diameter, 200 grain SWC. They say it is made with hard casting alloy 2-6-92 with a BHN of 17. I dont see anywhere on their site about what kind of lube they use.

The timing us perfect in the gun and shoots factory fmj's just fine. Btw I used copper remover and thoroughly cleaned the gun before switching to cast bullets.

 

[arjay]

I have a colt saa in 45 colt that sprays 452 bullets in a pattern and does lead some.It's quite accurate and doesn't lead with 454s

 

[C17]

They should hang up just a bit in the front of the cylinder,if they don't you need a slightly bigger bullet.

Ok, when I get home I will drop some unloaded bullets in there and see what happens. Thanks!

 

[C17]

No. The throat is the gas seal before the bullet moves from the chamber to the bore. You need that sealed or the heated expanding gas will go around the bullet and you lose pressure and end up with a leaded forcing cone.

That makes sense. I see 45 acp is offered in .452 and .451. If .452 is too small to create that seal.. Then what? Do I need a new cylinder?

 

[venomballistics]

That makes sense. I see 45 acp is offered in .452 and .451. If .452 is too small to create that seal.. Then what? Do I need a new cylinder?

that just means you need to get a mold, lead pot, and a bullet size die to let out till it works and make your own

 

[Fishinfool]

C17-

I am going to bet you have slightly over sized cylinder throats. As stated above by other posters, ideally, you bullet should be a tight fit thru the chamber throats. This helps align the bullet with the forcing cone, and prevents gas blow by, which is a major cause of leading in the forcing cone / first couple inches of the barrel.

Hard cast bullets only contribute to the problem. A softer bullet, even though it may be slightly undersized to the throat, will usually "Bump Up" in size upon firing, resulting in a good seal. You are probably not getting this "Bump up" with a hard cast at the pressures and velocities you are loading at. I'd also bet, being commercially cast, that they have a bevel base, which can also contribute to leading.

In short, you probably have a bullet that would work well in a 1911 semi-auto, but not as well in a revolver.

As stated above, try seeing if one of your bullets drops freely thru the chamber and forcing cone. If it does, you most likely have found your answer. Lets say your throats are .452. Then your bullet should be about .001 to .002 larger, no smaller then .452. You can check your bullets with a dial caliper, and measure your throats by pushing a soft, over sized lead ball thru, and measuring it with the dial caliper, or by using a set of "pin gauges".

I don't own a 45 acp revolver, but have used the above info to make a variety of 44 spl, 44 mag, and 45lc revolvers shoot up to snuff.

Larry

 

[tbury]

Lewis Lead removal kit (Brownells) is the best way to remove heavy leading build up. Choreboy copper pad material wrapped around a brush will work for cylinders but the forcing cone is tough to clean without the matching cone shaped fitting and brass screen in the Lewis kit.

Some 25-2 revolvers in 45 colt had cylinders with .454 or larger throats. I am not aware of this being a problem in 45acp models. Many suppliers sell .454 lead bullets for pre-WWII colt SSAs which had .454 barrels. I have two 25-2s in 45 colt a .452 bullets has to be lightly pushed through the cylinder of one and drops through the other. The second one is very accurate with little leading using .454 cast bullets. I use .452 cast bullets in the other.

 

[arjay]

That makes sense. I see 45 acp is offered in .452 and .451. If .452 is too small to create that seal.. Then what? Do I need a new cylinder?

Some makers carry 200 gr lswc or rnfp in 454. I get mine from cheycast.com

 

[SMSgt]

Revolvers typically require a softer lead than semiautos, and often larger diameter.

 

[C17]

Some makers carry 200 gr lswc or rnfp in 454. I get mine from cheycast.com

So maybe if I find the .452 bullets too small to create a gas seal in the cylinder..I could buy .454 bullets and use a bullet swag in my press to size them to where they need to be, possibly .453 or something. Wont know until I get home and check the cylinder.

 

[C17]

Just another thought. What about gas checks? If cylinder throat blow by is occuring would adding gas checks to my load solve this?

 

[venomballistics]

Just another thought. What about gas checks? If cylinder throat blow by is occuring would adding gas checks to my load solve this?

only some.
youd have an even harder base that will be protected, but wont bump up, thus allowing more blowby.

What powder are you using anyhow?
some work with cast lead better than others

 

[Nframecollector]

You used a dremel in the barrel?

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

I have never met a factory 625-8 with oversized chambers, usually they are grossly undersized and out of round. Are we sure the bullets are indeed 0.452?

 

[Cdog]

Make sure you clean between lead and jacketed shooting.

The two metals love to stick together. Like liquors, I don't mix my lights and darks. Severe leading is something I've not experienced in any type .45 ACP, but have had it when mixing higher velocity rounds.

Kroil brand oil will remove lead like nobody's business. Apply a good dose and let it sit in the barrel at least a half hour, then clean as usual. You'll be amazed at how the lead turns loose.

 

[coat]

I have 625-6 I have always got leading at the cone. Try hard and soft lead sized for .450 to 452. Had a guy look at the rifling he thinks it was cut for jacked bullets. The rifling grooves are real light. someday i will find it a new home

 

[scooter123]

Which version of the 625-8 do you have? I'll bet it's the 625 JM. As for how I knew that, it's pretty simple, the JM features an ECM rifled barrel and the PC version has cut rifling. I tried just 50 rounds of Blaser LRN 38 spl in my model 620, which also features an ECM barrel, and it took 12-14 hours of scrubbing to get the lead out of the barrel. As I found out the ECM barrels are EXTREMELY particular about the lube used with a lead bullet. As a result I only shoot jacketed or plated bullets in my revolvers with ECM barrels. BTW, those revolvers are my 610-3, 620, and 625 JM.

Now for some good news that should ease your mind. That is that Federal Champion 45 ACP ammunition uses plated bullets. I know that for a fact because I broke down a couple of rounds that had primers installed sideways to recycle the casings. It was a bit of a surprise when I found the bullets were not actually FMJ as marketed but are instead plated. Now the good news about this, if you haven't shot any Federal Champion in your 625 I can tell you that I've shot close to 1500 rounds in my 625 JM and the barrel didn't have any leading issues at all. Since I started reloading using Berry's and HSM plated bullets I haven't tried any in the 625 yet but have run about 300 through my 610 with not a bit of leading. For an absolute fact I can assure you that plated bullets will not present a leading issue in a S&W ECM barrel as long as they are properly crimped.

BTW, I only use a 0.002 to 0.003 inch taper crimp on my ammo. Testing with a bullet hammer has shown that bullet pull due to recoil isn't an issue with this much crimp because it takes a pretty good whack to get the bullet to move. Setback in a semi is also not a concern, testing the 40 in my Sig P239 and the 45 ACP in my Ruger SR1911 shows that it takes 8 or more rechambering cycles to set the bullet back more than 0.010 inch. Quite simply you really don't need a lot of crimp to lock the bullet in well enough for range use. Note that measurement is taken measuring the diameter at the edge of the casing and checked against the diameter about 3/16 inch back over the bullet, so the total taper is the larger diameter minus the smaller diameter.

As for the ammo you already have loaded, I would suggest using them in a revolver or semi that has a barrel with traditional cut rifling. Otherwise you'll be facing trying to lube the bullets externally sort of like what we see on 22LR ammo and I don't think that will work very well.

PS, the way to spot an ECM barrel is to take a close look at the rifling. If you find there aren't any sharp edges and it looks like it been over-polished and worn out it's an ECM machined barrel. The actual process is identified as Electro Chemical Machining by S&W and technically it's a variant of Electic Discharge Machining or EDM.

If you find your rifling has good sharp edges at the lands and grooves then it's most likely that you have some type of functional flaw in your revolver. Personally I would suspect a cylinder with UNDERSIZE throats and would use a pin gage to check the diameter. IMO you would like to see a 0.452 Minus gage just barely pass and not see anything under 0.451 inch that won't go in. I'll also tell you NOT to try checking your throats with calipers, it's not accurate enough. You should either use pin gages or ID Micrometers.

 

[C17]

only some.
youd have an even harder base that will be protected, but wont bump up, thus allowing more blowby.

What powder are you using anyhow?
some work with cast lead better than others

I suppose it would. I am using 4.2 grains of IMR 700x.

 

[C17]

You used a dremel in the barrel?

Sure did. Got a long reach wire wheel and cleaned the hell out of it. Basically I had to use Lead Remover and the wheel. The LR only helped some, but the caked stuff I had to use the friction from the wheel to basically melt the lead.