Severe leading

You loaded .452 bullets. Now pull a couple of bullets and see if they are still .452. If they are smaller you have over taper crimped and swaged the bullet and case to much. Not hard to do. hope you didn't do it to all of them. You could also check the pulled in the cylinder with the new unloaded to see the difference.. Let us know what the pulled measure.
Mike
 
scooter Thats the kind of barrel i have in my 625 thank you noing that
 
Sure did. Got a long reach wire wheel and cleaned the hell out of it. Basically I had to use Lead Remover and the wheel. The LR only helped some, but the caked stuff I had to use the friction from the wheel to basically melt the lead.

A STEEL or Brass/Bronze wheel? Is the leading WORSE since this cleaning??

90% of issues in auto's or revolvers with leading are related to bullet FIT more than anything else. One must of course use a proper alloy and lube, but SIZING seems to be THE biggest issue with extreme leading.

My pair of 1911's both like .452" slugs more than .451" slugs. I have shot several hundreds of rds of practice, then Matches and after hundreds of rds the leading is negligible.

Yet with .451" slugs it's a VERY different story. Doesn't matter if my alloys are hard or softer...I get leading.

Measure your cylinder throats. I'm interested to hear the results.

FN in MT
 
Which version of the 625-8 do you have? I'll bet it's the 625 JM. As for how I knew that, it's pretty simple, the JM features an ECM rifled barrel and the PC version has cut rifling. I tried just 50 rounds of Blaser LRN 38 spl in my model 620, which also features an ECM barrel, and it took 12-14 hours of scrubbing to get the lead out of the barrel. As I found out the ECM barrels are EXTREMELY particular about the lube used with a lead bullet. As a result I only shoot jacketed or plated bullets in my revolvers with ECM barrels. BTW, those revolvers are my 610-3, 620, and 625 JM.

Now for some good news that should ease your mind. That is that Federal Champion 45 ACP ammunition uses plated bullets. I know that for a fact because I broke down a couple of rounds that had primers installed sideways to recycle the casings. It was a bit of a surprise when I found the bullets were not actually FMJ as marketed but are instead plated. Now the good news about this, if you haven't shot any Federal Champion in your 625 I can tell you that I've shot close to 1500 rounds in my 625 JM and the barrel didn't have any leading issues at all. Since I started reloading using Berry's and HSM plated bullets I haven't tried any in the 625 yet but have run about 300 through my 610 with not a bit of leading. For an absolute fact I can assure you that plated bullets will not present a leading issue in a S&W ECM barrel as long as they are properly crimped.

BTW, I only use a 0.002 to 0.003 inch taper crimp on my ammo. Testing with a bullet hammer has shown that bullet pull due to recoil isn't an issue with this much crimp because it takes a pretty good whack to get the bullet to move. Setback in a semi is also not a concern, testing the 40 in my Sig P239 and the 45 ACP in my Ruger SR1911 shows that it takes 8 or more rechambering cycles to set the bullet back more than 0.010 inch. Quite simply you really don't need a lot of crimp to lock the bullet in well enough for range use. Note that measurement is taken measuring the diameter at the edge of the casing and checked against the diameter about 3/16 inch back over the bullet, so the total taper is the larger diameter minus the smaller diameter.

As for the ammo you already have loaded, I would suggest using them in a revolver or semi that has a barrel with traditional cut rifling. Otherwise you'll be facing trying to lube the bullets externally sort of like what we see on 22LR ammo and I don't think that will work very well.

PS, the way to spot an ECM barrel is to take a close look at the rifling. If you find there aren't any sharp edges and it looks like it been over-polished and worn out it's an ECM machined barrel. The actual process is identified as Electro Chemical Machining by S&W and technically it's a variant of Electic Discharge Machining or EDM.

If you find your rifling has good sharp edges at the lands and grooves then it's most likely that you have some type of functional flaw in your revolver. Personally I would suspect a cylinder with UNDERSIZE throats and would use a pin gage to check the diameter. IMO you would like to see a 0.452 Minus gage just barely pass and not see anything under 0.451 inch that won't go in. I'll also tell you NOT to try checking your throats with calipers, it's not accurate enough. You should either use pin gages or ID Micrometers.

Damn thats a lot of info, but good info. I do not have a JM. I have a 625-8 with a 4 inch barrel and by your description a ECM barrel. I tried putting a bullet in the cylinder ( bare bullet) and it wont even come close to going through. Tried the barrel too. .452 is clearly oversized and explains my leading problem in the cylinder and forcing cone, as it is shaving the sides off. This is the only 45 I own, so using my 2k bullets in another gun isnt a option. Breaking them all down and sizing the bullets in a swag is though. Damn thats going to be a lot of work. I will switch to plated or jacket bullets from now on.
 
Well I just measured the new unloaded bullets and they are .452 on the dot. Tomorrow I will push one through the cylinder and measure it. Then I will slug the barrel with one and measure it.
 
Are you sure this is lead in the forcing cone?

Have you checked the forcing cone to see if it is rough or smooth?

I have a 25-9 .45 Colt which would built up a lot of carbon at the beginning of the forcing cone. The cone was poorly finished almost looked as if a tap had been threaded into the back.

I had a smith do an eleven degree cut and polish to smooth it up.

This looks better and cleans easier than the formerly rough cone.
However it still carbons up leaving hard chunks of material that is very hard to brush out. There has never been lead in the cone or barrel just carbon.

I finally made a tool to remove the carbon with just two or three twists of a cleaning rod.

This is much easier and solved my problem. See if this is a carbon problem before giving up on the bullets. Check to see if the cone is smooth.

If you want to know about the tool just ask.

Bruce
 
Try getting all the copper out of your barrel. It might involve several evenings of running patches through and letting the bore stay wet until your I suspect that your bullets are eroding from a powder blowby and plating your bore with lead. Softer bullets can expand to fit your bore as has been explained. Many gunsmiths love dremel tools as they give them plenty of business in replacing parts.
 
I don't think that oversize bullets have anything to do with your leading, they'll get swaged down in the throats and barrel. People have been shooting 0.452 inch bullets in 45 caliber handguns for well over 100 years now and the 0.452 Berry's plated bullets I've used have functioned perfectly in my 625 and SR1911. The problem your dealing with is the interplay between the current lube and your ECM barrel. As I discovered this type of barrel is VERY sensitive to lube when using unplated bullets. Unfortunately I can't recomend a suitable lube but if you re-read some of the posts suggesting different lubes you may find a solution.

Since you have 2000 assembled rounds I would suggest that you list out the various lubricants that have been suggested and do a bit of testing using 20 or 30 round test lots. Get your barrel well cleaned out then fire a small test lot lubricated with a particular lube and then test for leading by running a solvent wetted patch down the barrel on a cleaning jag. If you have leading you'll find out pretty quickly by the extra drag and leading from just 20 or 30 rounds should be fairly easy to clean up. Once you find a lube that prevents leading in a small test try a larger test lot and see how it does then. Then once you find a good lube you can then use that with all that ammo your loaded up. Note, I suspect you may find that magic lube is either smoky or dirty to shoot. If so, ask yourself which is worse, a dirty pistol or a severely leaded up barrel.

BTW, Lead Away cleaning patches on a jag can help with cleaning the barrel. A more aggressive and cheap solvent to use with a bronze bore bush to dissolve the lead can also be made up with a 50/50 mix of white vinegar and peroxide. However the byproducts are toxic and can in theory ba absorbed through the skin so you'll want latex or vinyl gloves if you use this mix.
 
I just cut a wax plug to seal one end of the barrel and fill it with the vinegar peroxide solution ....
two minutes, pour it out and see what ya have.

I would recommend hiding the dremel from yourself in the future.
You might have to search for a while but copper chore boy pads have a fan club in these parts for this sort of work. They are quite aggressive on lead without the risk of damage.
 
I just cut a wax plug to seal one end of the barrel and fill it with the vinegar peroxide solution ....
two minutes, pour it out and see what ya have.

I would recommend hiding the dremel from yourself in the future.
You might have to search for a while but copper chore boy pads have a fan club in these parts for this sort of work. They are quite aggressive on lead without the risk of damage.

No kidding on the dremel. It was time consuming but didnt damage the gun.

I would rather find a better way like you suggested. I am going to get the chore boy copper scrubs and will try the vinegar/ hp solution.

Also got a pin gauge today and will post detailed specs of loaded bullets, unloaded bullets, cylinder bores ( all 6) and forcing cone specs. If its too out of whack it may go to S&W to get reamed to the correct size
 
Ok everyone. Here are the numbers. I used a pin gauge on the cylinder throats.

The first number is the case throat area, the second number is the bullet throat area. Each chamber has been numbered 1-6

1: .475/.452
2: .475/.452
3: .475/.451
4 .475/.452
5 .475/.451
6: .475/.452

Seems to be okay, now for the part that hurts my head. All the physics in the world tell me that my match grade .452 200 grain SWC bullets should fit right in there no problem. Well they don't. I basically took 6 brand new bullets, measured them all around at .452 and then basically slugged the cylinder throats. I then measured the bullets after they passed through. The results are strange. I used a wooden dowel and had to hammer, yes hammer, them through. Here are the bullet sizes after.

1: .450
2: .449
3: .449
4: .452
5: .450
6: .449

Now I ask...What the hell?

None were out of round, but the "step up" from the cylinder to the throat, or the "ledge" as some may call it is 0.023, and it is that "ledge" that is shaving the sides of my bullets off and making a hell of a mess.

I wonder if the FMJ factory ammo I was previously shooting was being over pressured from the tight fit in the cylinder throat.

I then pulled 5 loaded bullets. I measured the bullets at .452 with no distortion.

I measured the bullet casing of loaded rounds 1/4 inch below the crimp at .468 and 1/4 inch above the web at .467.

I figured I would do the same to some Home Defense PDX1 ammo. The base of that bullet AT THE CRIMP was .445, and the casing was .473.

I honestly think my cylinder chambers may be out of round or something. It is really not making much sense now.

I read that you should only need "2 finger pressure" to be able to push a bullet all the way through the cylinder...I had to use a hammer.

Don't worry, I have a padded vice and no firearms were harmed in the making of this data.
 
1: .450
2: .449
3: .449
4: .452
5: .450
6: .449

Now I ask...What the hell?

See post #25 sounds about right in my experience for a -8, needs chamber and throat finishing with a reamer. But I have to ask about the pin gauges, they should be a no go.
 
IMO your revolver need to go back to the factory. I suspect that your cylinder is missing the small chamfer at the edge of the headspace ledge and that sharp corner is what is causing your problems. My 610 had this problem and it was bad enough that it would strip the jacketing from an FMJ bullet.
 
I read that you should only need "2 finger pressure" to be able to push a bullet all the way through the cylinder...I had to use a hammer.

Where did you read that??? That would be big news to me. I don't know that you can really say what amount of pressure it should take as it will always be easier to push a lead bullet through than a jacketed bullet. That is part of why jacketed loads always list a higher pressure.

Also, keep in mind that lead has a certain amount of "spring back" to it. It can depend on the alloy, if they were air cooled or water quenched, the temp they were cast at, and several other things. I used to wonder why some guys would size a lead bullet down with a sizing die rated for the same as the bore (.357 bore and .357 die instead of .358 or .359) and finally found out that some guys expect the spring back after sizing due to their casting operation.

You are looking at commercial cast bullets. It's not unusual at all for them to have a variety of differences in them. That's a large part of why so many guys cast thier own to achieve the highest accuracy they can from their guns. If you cast your own you can know exactly the alloy, hardness, casting temp, and so on to eliminate variables instead of just crossing your fingers.
 
Hardcast bullets are not needed in a revolver at moderate speeds. They do benefit the manufacturer as they do not need as much protection for shipping as the soft cast. I cast my own for 45Colt, 38Special, and 357 as close to pure lead as I can(do need a small amount of tin) and have zero leading. When I bought hardcast bullets from many casters, they all leaded.
 
After some back and forth emails, S&W agreed to let me send in the gun for them to "look at".

Not before they told me that they wouldnt help me because I was shooting reloads. One guy told me to shoot smaller bullets! I told him that I want to shoot the size bullets that the gun was made for!

So now its a waiting game
 
Unfortunately they will probably send it back saying it is "within spec" as all the -8s probably have never seen a finishing reamer in their life. I swear they are all blind drilled and sent out the door, and this is not something new.
 
Unfortunately they will probably send it back saying it is "within spec" as all the -8s probably have never seen a finishing reamer in their life. I swear they are all blind drilled and sent out the door, and this is not something new.

I hope that isn't the case. At least it appears to be a known issue. Worst case scenario I will buy a new cylinder from numrich gun parts and have it fitted.
 
I hope they fix it for you, cause this SHOULDN'T BE HAPPENING. I can understand the odd QC problem, it happens, but this seems to be more deliberate corner cutting or their tools are REALLY worn out.
 
Seems you`ve done enuff of measuring to confuse yaself & us !

But what are ya measuring with ?? calipers won`t cut it , a good micrometer is a must !

I had a model 57 giving me fits until I fire lapped it !

I use jags & patches on revolvers & can feel ruff cyl throats & barrels, the last few GPs I polished the barrel with patches & FLITZ .
 
Worst case scenario I will buy a new cylinder from numrich gun parts and have it fitted.

Another option would be to get a throating reamer from Dave Manson's link. Then your throats will be the correct diameter. Then the throats will be round and the correct diameter.

Have you tried slugging the barrel and seeing if that slug will pass through the cylinder throats with finger pressure? That is really the key.
 
leading bbl

not to diagnose or fix but just to clean. a wire wheel is too harsh imo and as stated may have made things worse. RU sure it's lead and not copper? first a standard cleaning with a decent solvent, lead, copper, or both. then some non chlorinated brake cleaner will strip any oils/solvents (avoid plastic )then some kind of polish/paste and a toothbrush or nylon bristle brush and elbow grease should do it. I use turtle wax chrome and rust polish& remover (it's cheap and readily available) dental picks come in handy for around the forcing cone but be careful of scratching anything. always start slow and gentle first, then get more aggressive if it's needed, it may not be.
 
That makes sense. I see 45 acp is offered in .452 and .451. If .452 is too small to create that seal.. Then what? Do I need a new cylinder?

that just means you need to get a mold, lead pot, and a bullet size die to let out till it works and make your own

There are also manufacturers that offer lead bullets in .453 & .454. Missouri Bullets also offers different BHN and has a good tutorial on their website describing what's good for what & why.

I've had really good luck with a Bear Creek .452 moly coated 200gr RNHB. I'm guessing the hollow base helps sealing. It's very accurate & doesn't lead at all. Might try them in my '52 Model of 1950. Regular .452 LSWC leave gobs & streaks of lead everywhere. I gave up & just run plated in it.
 
There are also manufacturers that offer lead bullets in .453 & .454. Missouri Bullets also offers different BHN and has a good tutorial on their website describing what's good for what & why.

I've had really good luck with a Bear Creek .452 moly coated 200gr RNHB. I'm guessing the hollow base helps sealing. It's very accurate & doesn't lead at all. Might try them in my '52 Model of 1950. Regular .452 LSWC leave gobs & streaks of lead everywhere. I gave up & just run plated in it.

The problem is the bullets are already too big.
 
Do NOT make the mistake of assuming that oversized bullets cause leading. Many time bullets that are undersized create more leading issues than oversize bullets. The cause in the case of undersized bullets is Gas Leakage between the barrel and bullet causing localized melting of the surface of the bullet and accompanying deposits of lead.
 
GUESSING THE CAUSE AND CURE WITHOUT THE GUN

the gun has to be physically in the hands of someone knowledgeable enough about that particular make & mdl to make a correct diagnosis. to ask a bunch of guys on the net without, or even with pics, is just pissin into the wind. some MAY have a correct answer, most will not.
 
the gun has to be physically in the hands of someone knowledgeable enough about that particular make & mdl to make a correct diagnosis. to ask a bunch of guys on the net without, or even with pics, is just pissin into the wind. some MAY have a correct answer, most will not.

Exactly, which is why I submitted a warranty shipping request to S&W to look at it. Still waiting to get the label, although in email traffic they told me to request one and that they would check it out
 
If they ask you to send in the "Whole Gun" make sure you don't...............

Send the original box, any non-stock items that you want to keep and after market grips. These items will be kept and "Stock" items added.

Good luck.
 
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