Shoot The Dog?

TennTony

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Had my first self defense use of a CCL gun tonight. Pulled into my driveway at approx. 9:15 p.m. and was confronted with a neighbor's pit bull. I live in a cul de sac and the back gate was open on a neighbor's yard a few doors away. The dog was loose. It came around the back of the car, barking at me. I yelled a few commands at it and moved toward it but it did not back off. I then started moving up my driveway wondering what else I could do. The dog followed barking and lunged, biting at me but only getting my pant leg, which it immediately released. At that point I drew my gun, 3.5" .45 ACP. The dog was about 5 feet away. Considering my options I chose to fire one round into my front lawn, about 3 feet from the dog. The dog, of course, turned tail. I went in the house and called the police to report the incident. The incident was written up and deemed justified. The responding officer asked why I didn't shoot the dog.

My reasoning was I had not actually been bitten and my pants were not even torn. I felt the dog would try to bite me again. I was certain the noise & muzzle flash of a 230 grain Hydra-Shok would send the dog running. I am interested in opinions, especially from LEOs: Should I have shot the dog?
 
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Sorry, I'm not a LEO. You would have been entirely justified in shooting the dog. If you had, however, you would have been deemed lower than a child molester by the owners (he isn't aggressive! he wouldn't hurt a flea! he just wanted to play! the kids wrestle with him all the time!) and by at least half your other neighbors. In fact, I know of one person who actually was accused of child-molestation by the owners of a pit he shot in his own yard, after the dog had escaped his pen and invaded the yard (where a disabled, wheelchair bound child was) numerous times.

We used to be a nation of dog-lovers. Now, we are a nation of dog worshippers.
 
In terms of gauging the appropriateness of your response in a dangerous situation, the only criterion that matters is whether you and yours escape unharmed. Only you were there, so no one else is qualified to pass judgement. Nevertheless, based on the results it seems you did the right thing.

I would not, however, recommend warning shots for human encounters. If the sight of your gun doesn't make him back down firing a round in the dirt is unlikely to do so.
 
I would not, however, recommend warning shots for human encounters. If the sight of your gun doesn't make him back down firing a round in the dirt is unlikely to do so.

I agree entirely. Had this been an encounter with human(s) that decision would have been made before I reached for the gun.

In hindsight, it was good to have that option with the dog.
 
I would have hit the dog with the hydroshock, my reasoning is had you fired that round and he still attacked you blew your one 'for sure' half arsed safe shot trying to warn your attacker that you would attack back
 
I walk my dogs every week. All my mutts are ALWAYS on leashes. Very frequently people walk their dogs off the leash, and they usually charge my dogs. I dog Tilley is a 6 year old 100 pound muscled-out dog who is very aggressive with other dogs. When they charge her and she reacts to them, the other owners look at me as if I am some kind of a fiend.

That being said, I am a LEO and am usually armed. When I walk the dogs in the land of the unleashed dogs (Orange County, CA), I always carry 10% pepper spray. Shooting a dog is the absolute last resort. Even if the law is on your side, not every situation under the law is the correct one.

Although you scared the dog away, the liability is still on you if that bullet somehow bounces off something and hits a person, you are in big trouble.

Usually pepper spray is effective on dogs, and if that doesn't work, then do what you must do to reasonably protect yourself.

Two very large pitbulls charge my german shepard Tiley, and I sprayed them both. They ran away and started licking each others eyes...burned like heck!

Had that not deterred the attack, I would have shot. Keep in mind I was in the hills with no one around. Had I been in a busy area with people and children around, I would not shoot. As ferosious as dogs can be, I do believe I could kill a dog with my hands as anyone here would if it attacked you child (I have no kids).

I those situations, consider carrying a large stick and/or knife.

My .02 worth...
 
...should have shot him.

He's vicious. Someone else will get bit later. If the neighbors are too dense to get that, then they can............. A man has to do what he has to do and sometimes one has to be a "majority of one".

That said, good job! you successfully negotiated a deadly force encounter unscathed. You're wise to "debrief" by discussing the incident with other carriers and I apologize if I sound too much like the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" guy.
 
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I think you did fine. If you had a tear in the pant leg & on your own property I'd call it justified(even a sidewalk). That said I've seen people get in more trouble over shooting a "pet" than a person, depending on what the owner wants to do. I have at times carried spray or a stick, I realize you were not out for a stroll.
One guy told me the story of an aggressive dog that was killing his dog on his property. He took a shovel to it's head, didn't quite kill it. The owner of the offending dog gave his story to the police. It took a while for the other guy to get the real facts out. The aggressive dog also had a 'history'. Under the right circumstances I'll go with SSS.
 
Do you carry a cell phone? What's the police response time in your area? How about getting back in your vehicle and calling the police? I'd rather have the police shoot your neighbor's dog than you do it; creating all kinds of bad feelings from your neighbor. I'll second carrying OC.
 
Not to second guess your reaction because only you where there and you made the correct decision for you. But, I have been in a simliar situation and used pepper spray when an unleashed dog attacked. Pepper spray works really well, but if I take my gun out of the holster, somethings going to get shot.
 
You actually pulled and fired upon an unarmed subject? In a residential area no less.

You should have put the dog out of your misery.
 
The only dog I ever killed (so far) was a pit bull that bit my gun hand without provocation while I was on duty. Shooting a dog on a city street with people around can be a tricky business and the disaster factor is high. I had a couple of other incidents where I would've been justified but the backdrop presented a very dangerous shot either with children present or millionaires and lawyers living just beyond my sight picture. In those situations I held my shot until the last second (waiting to see the whites of their eyes?) and the dogs backed off, seeing that I was holding my ground and sensing my complete lack of fear. In your situation where the dog has latched onto your pant leg, it should be shot. The safest and most effective shot for such a predicament is to shoot downward through the dog's hips, keeping the bullet as far away from you as possible while disabling the dog. A dog shot in such a manner will scream bloody murder, but as far as I'm concerned is still dangerous and shot be shot again quickly and killed. But this must all be done very quickly or you will likely draw all kinds of public scrutiny and outrage.

Dave Sinko
 
It has been my experiance that OC pepper spray is NOT a dependable deterent for dogs. I've used it dozens of times and have found it to be 25% effective at best on aggressive dogs. There are specifically designed dog sprays that are much more effective, and we have found that an ABC fire extingusher is very effective.

But, back to the original question, if that dog had gotten close enough to nip at my pant leg while in my own driveway it would have been DRT. It is common knowledge that pit bull terriers are powerful dogs with a tendancy to aggresiveness. You neighbors should be cognicent enough to know that if their pit bull gets out, unsupervised, it is a major liability for them.

As for getting back in the car, calling 911 and awaiting the police to come deal with it . . . that's a good recommendation for a unarmed woman or child.
 
Sorry, I'm not a LEO. You would have been entirely justified in shooting the dog. If you had, however, you would have been deemed lower than a child molester by the owners (he isn't aggressive! he wouldn't hurt a flea! he just wanted to play! the kids wrestle with him all the time!) and by at least half your other neighbors.

We used to be a nation of dog-lovers. Now, we are a nation of dog worshippers.

And the owners who claim the "right" for their dogs to run loose, even when prohibited by law, will claim it is YOUR FAULT their dog bit your child in your back yard.
 
A few weeks ago here in erie, a police officer HAD TO shoot and kill a dog that attacked him. The dog came out and lunged several time while trhe officer backed away.I guess the final attack came and the dog wasnt stopping and the officer shot the dog.Of course the owner said the officer didnt have to shoot the dog because he really wouldnt have hurt him.(witnesses said otherwise) The dogs owner started pulling the race card in an attempt to direct guilt to the officer.That didnt work out so well for them.Guess the only thing that happened was the owner was charged for failure to have their dog on a leash.What kills me is that he animal enforcement arent allowed to carry a weapon, just a pole with a rope on it..man thats really handy to have. How was it Ted Nugent put it, "shoot the dog and used the pole and rope on the owner"
 
I personally thing you handled it just fine. From your description it sounds that while you were surely in danger of being injured, you weren't in immediate danger of death. I would have handled it the same way.. warning shot first. Although for a dog, it's not as much as of a warning shot as it is a loud really scary noise.

At the very least, maybe the neighbor will be more careful about keeping Fifi properly tied up now that it has come close to being shot.
 
Not to second guess your reaction because only you where there and you made the correct decision for you. But, I have been in a simliar situation and used pepper spray when an unleashed dog attacked. Pepper spray works really well, but if I take my gun out of the holster, somethings going to get shot.

I agree. No disrespect, but the hell with pepper spray. I would use it if I couldn't get a safe shot at the dog. But otherwise I would put the dog down.

Many years ago a dog chased me and tried to bite me. I did nothing about it. The next day the very same dog cornered my wife and she held it off with an ice scraper.

NEVER AGAIN!

How do think I would feel if the same dog attacked a family member or neighbor? Maybe your son or daughter playing in the front yard?
 
Our dogs, Yogi the Basset hound, and Gunny, the German Shepherd in my avatar, have been attacked about 7 times in 14 years while out for walks in our neighborhood. That's about once every 2 years. We are sick and tired of it.
My wife and I always carry pepper spray, whether it's effective I don't know except the last time Yogi was attacked about a year ago, she said she sprayed the pepper spray at the attacking dog with no results. She said she thought she might have missed it's face. Two guys working down the block came to assist her. One was getting ready to clock the attacking dog with a long 2x4 when the owner came out and got his dog. My wife hates guns although she doesn't interfere at all with my owning and collecting. I always carry legally concealed.

About 6 weeks ago, she was walking Gunny for me. Gunny is a 4 year old 110lb East German bloodline German Shepherd. He's my 3rd Shepherd. I haven't been able to walk him since mid February due to an undiagnosed hernia, which I have since had surgery for. I was upstairs and heard a loud distubance and I looked out the window to see a 55-60 lb mutt that's owned by a rental property couple down the block attacking Gunny, who is on his leash of course. I limped downstairs to see Gunny with the mutt in his mouth shaking him back and forth. The mutt was off the ground completely. The owner arrives at this time and gets his dog and apologizes in such a way, with his arms outstretched and says, "I'm sorry I apologize" when my wife reminds him his dog has gotten off the property many times before. His words may have been an apology but his body language and tone of voice indicated he was annoyed at being hassled. He only said he was sorry because he was smart enough to know it was smarter to do so. If left off his leash there is no doubt Gunny would have killed this dog. He is very protective and confident dog, but he's not a psycho. He's very gentle and extremely loving with us and strangers off the property in neutral territory. He will challenge visitors until we quiet him down with proven techniques. 5 minutes later, he'll be leaning his side on them and kissing their hands. We do not allow him to be present if the visitor has visible fear of a big dog. So ocassionlly I will put him in another room if we have a scared visitor or a repairman over. I make sure visits of those type of folks are short because I don't like to isolate him from his environment.

I took Gunny to the vet and had him checked out. The mutt had bitten him where his neck joins the right shoulder. No break in the skin and only minor bruising. I don't know how much damage Gunny did to the other dog and frankly, I don't care. It's the owner's fault more than the dog's. My wife reminded me that when Gunny was a puppy about 3 1/2 years ago, the same dog ran down the block and turned the corner (we have a corner property) and ran all the way down the one side of our property to attack this 3 month old puppy. There was no damage luckily. The wife or daughter was right behind the mutt and pulled him off before he could do any damage. I had forgotten the incident because Gunny was OK and I had been at work when it happended and heard it afterwards.

I reported the current incident to the local PD. I expected the other dog's owner to just pay our vet bills as the proceedure in the borough is usualy to warn the attacking dog's owner the first time as to the legal and financial fines attached to having a loose dog around here. If the victim dog has serious injuries I think the police around here would handle the violation differently. The responding officer cited the owners for letting the dog run free, a lapsed rabies vaccination, and no dog registration.
So now the idiot is facing $400-$500 worth of fines instead of a $100 vet visit reimbursement.

It's because this idiot's dog attacked him as a puppy and due to the same type of incident that happened with another grown dog when Gunny was a puppy, that he hates all other dogs aside from his 'bro, Yogi.
I could tell Gunny was made of harder stuff than my other Shepherds even at 8-9 weeks old. I took him to a puppy training class around here so he could meet a lot of other dogs when he was a baby and so he would be well socialized to other dogs. I have raise and trained 5 dogs and I didn't need to take him for training so I would know how to handle him, just for the socialization. Most of the dogs owners around here are too lazy to walk their dogs. They never get out of the yards. No wonder they are mostly very territorial and don't like other dogs to the extent they will race 2-3 blocks off their property to attack. Of those that do walk their dogs, a number of them are too lazy to pick up the dog poop. Hey, I hate handling dog poop too, but it's a law and it makes sense.

Ironically, of the 7 or so times our dogs have been attacked, it's only been when my poor wife was walking them. I can't say for sure I wouldn't have shot the big nasty Rottweiler that got out of his yard and threatend my 2nd Shepherd, Jesse and Yogi years ago. The owner was right there and had to back his dog up with a rake to get him to stop moving forward.

I have -0- tolerance for other dog owners who neglect their animals and put them at risk by not making sure gates and doors are secure. They put their own dogs at risk to getting hit by vehicles and other people and dogs at risk, too. If it was up to me and any of these aggressive dogs had attacked when I was walking my guys I would shoot them out of hand. But I know better and will only really do so if there's no other alternative. I always let the cops handle it since it's never been a dire emergency, only frightening.
 
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I think the OP handled it correctly. That dog bit just what it wanted to bite--clothes, not leg. If it wanted the leg, it would have gotten it. Dogs don't usually miss what they're going after, especially when it's something as slow as a person.

Wasp spray apparently works good, too. A friend was a telephone repairman and a big Doberman came after him one day. All he had was wasp spray and shot some at the dog and got him in the mouth. The dog collapsed as if it was shot. My friend actually thought he'd killed the dog and went about his business and came back to the house later to explain what had happened to their dog. The dog was not dead, though, and was sitting on the front porch and paid no attention to him at all when he walked up and rang the doorbell.
 
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