Sig found liable for gun discharge

[BB57]

There is a lot of speculation about Sigs and some is pure hogwash. One thing is for sure, lawyers can easily switch back and forth regarding their support or distain of any case depending on who is paying. Another thing is that lawyers can get extremely verbose where a few words would do. Look at the thousands of pages of laws drawn up by the lawyers in the beltway.

I used to be in an interesting position investigating rape and sex abuse cases involving minors. The district attorneys all played the same role, but a public defender or pro bono attorneys might at different times in represent the defendant or act on behalf of the minor, when the accused was the victims relative.

This often created a situation where the attorney representing the minor child would sing praises to my character, intellect, ethics, credentials and years of experience as God's gift to investigation and interrogation in the morning. That afternoon, the same attorney representing a defendant with absolutely nothing on which to hang a credible defense would attack my character, intellect, ethics, credentials and experience.

It was just business.

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I am however seeing consequences for Sig. For example, a customer at a gunshow yesterday was looking at Sigs a vendor had for sale and the vendor was trying to explain away all the controversy with the Sig P320. He sighted the "millions" of P320s out there and how few incidents their were and blamed those on the shooter.

Without arguing the facts of his defense. It wasn't working. The customer was not convinced the P320 did not have a problem, and even if it did not, he was not comfortable carrying a firearm where over 100 people have managed to shoot themselves with it.

Worse, his distrust spread to the other Sigs like the P365. I stepped in at this point and explained the very different designs of the Sig P320 and P365 and why what is suspected to be happening with the P320 can't happen with the P365.

My impression? Sig, and Sig's attorney's have totally blown it with their 7 year long "we need to deny everything" legal defense. They have successfully avoided liability in the majority of cases and have avoided a mandatory recall that at this point would probably bankrupt them, but they lost consumer confidence in their products.

With other options that do the same thing without shooting their owners, people will buy other products, even if the SIg P320 doesn't have a problem.

 

[BE Mike]

I used to be in an interesting position investigating rape and sex abuse cases involving minors. The district attorneys all played the same role, but a public defender or pro bono attorneys might at different times in represent the defendant or act on behalf of the minor, when the accused was the victims relative.

This often created a situation where the attorney representing the minor child would sing praises to my character, intellect, ethics, credentials and years of experience as God's gift to investigation and interrogation in the morning. That afternoon, the same attorney representing a defendant with absolutely nothing on which to hang a credible defense would attack my character, intellect, ethics, credentials and experience.

It was just business.

----

I am however seeing consequences for Sig. For example, a customer at a gunshow yesterday was looking at Sigs a vendor had for sale and the vendor was trying to explain away all the controversy with the Sig P320. He sighted the "millions" of P320s out there and how few incidents their were and blamed those on the shooter.

Without arguing the facts of his defense. It wasn't working. The customer was not convinced the P320 did not have a problem, and even if it did not, he was not comfortable carrying a firearm where over 100 people have managed to shoot themselves with it.

Worse, his distrust spread to the other Sigs like the P365. I stepped in at this point and explained the very different designs of the Sig P320 and P365 and why what is suspected to be happening with the P320 can't happen with the P365.

My impression? Sig, and Sig's attorney's have totally blown it with their 7 year long "we need to deny everything" legal defense. They have successfully avoided liability in the majority of cases and have avoided a mandatory recall that at this point would probably bankrupt them, but they lost consumer confidence in their products.

With other options that do the same thing without shooting their owners, people will buy other products, even if the SIg P320 doesn't have a problem.

IDK, Ruger, S&W and Glock weathered their storms. Even Remington survived their Model 700 rifle difficulties. Of course Ruger ended up having to print a paragraph on their barrels and S&W conceded the IL. Of course everyone and anyone has instant access to the internet and can make any claims that they want. Also, many folks who screw up have a hard time admitting it.

 

[BB57]

IDK, Ruger, S&W and Glock weathered their storms. Even Remington survived their Model 700 rifle difficulties. Of course Ruger ended up having to print a paragraph on their barrels and S&W conceded the IL. Of course everyone and anyone has instant access to the internet and can make any claims that they want. Also, many folks who screw up have a hard time admitting it.

I don't recall any major gun tubers or earlier gun rag writers actually saying Glocks were unsafe. That's exactly what is happening now with Sig.

Glock was smart enough to incorporate a striker fire design that never comes to full cock until the trigger is pressed, as well as a trigger safety. They not only accepted the downside of a heavier trigger pull, but regarded it as a safety feature.

The same is true with DA/SA revolvers and pistols. You have to manually cock them to get a light SA trigger pull, and the long and fairly heavy DA trigger acts as a safety.

Assuming it also has an exposed hammer, a DA revolver or pistol can be holstered with a thumb over the back of the hammer to get immediate tactile feedback of a trigger intrusion. A similar option is available for most Glocks, where pressing on the back plate prevents the striker from coming to full cock and being released by an intrusion.
Sig paid heed to none of that in the P320, using a fully cocked striker to get a short, light trigger pull. That shortens the chain of events required to get an ND or AD, or as alleged a "UD".

They might weather the storm they created, but I see significant design changes in their future.

 

[CRT2]

I don't recall any major gun tubers or earlier gun rag writers actually saying Glocks were unsafe. That's exactly what is happening now with Sig.

Glock was smart enough to incorporate a striker fire design that never comes to full cock until the trigger is pressed, as well as a trigger safety. They not only accepted the downside of a heavier trigger pull, but regarded it as a safety feature.

The same is true with DA/SA revolvers and pistols. You have to manually cock them to get a light SA trigger pull, and the long and fairly heavy DA trigger acts as a safety.

Assuming it also has an exposed hammer, a DA revolver or pistol can be holstered with a thumb over the back of the hammer to get immediate tactile feedback of a trigger intrusion. A similar option is available for most Glocks, where pressing on the back plate prevents the striker from coming to full cock and being released by an intrusion.
Sig paid heed to none of that in the P320, using a fully cocked striker to get a short, light trigger pull. That shortens the chain of events required to get an ND or AD, or as alleged a "UD".

They might weather the storm they created, but I see significant design changes in their future.

"Glock Leg" comes to mind.

 

[Inkgardener]

This is a huge problem for Sig, but it's only half of the problem.

Recently, I watched a police chief discuss his department's decision to move on from the Sig, and how it is financially impacting his department. They paid $1000 for each of them.

Why would a police department pay $1000 for anything when they can get a Glock for less than $300. Is a Sig 3x better than a Glock? No, and the recent news headlines make the argument it's not even equal.

 

[BB57]

"Glock Leg" comes to mind.

And we all know that Glock leg results from some type of user input.

A Glock user wants to carry one on one of those farm animal stupid slide clips with the trigger fully exposed in your waistband? How about re-holstering in a non readily removeable IWB holster, with a loose shirt, jacket or draw cord lock sharing the same real estate?

They are entirely free to knock themselves out, but no one will be shocked when they have a negligent discharge.

And again, a jury just found the Sig P320 to be capable of an un-commanded discharge, but did not award any compensatory or punitive damages because the plaintiff chose to carry it in a manner most prudent people would consider to be unsafe.

Thats the area Glock has been in for decades successfully defending Glock leg cases.

Sig? They are not going to be nearly so lucky when the general opinion is it needs to no help to fire all by itself, in cases where it is safely carried.

 

[BB57]

This is a huge problem for Sig, but it's only half of the problem.

Recently, I watched a police chief discuss his department's decision to move on from the Sig, and how it is financially impacting his department. They paid $1000 for each of them.

Why would a police department pay $1000 for anything when they can get a Glock for less than $300. Is a Sig 3x better than a Glock? No, and the recent news headlines make the argument it's not even equal.

A couple observations:

1) LE contracts, like military contracts, usually include armorer training for a specified number of people, plus parts support, etc. So that turns a $700 real world retail priced handgun that would probably have a contract price of $500-$550 each, into a $1000 gun.

2) Particularly in smaller departments (under around 100 officers) pistol selection is often decided by a single officer who happens to be into guns and is regarded as an "expert", or an officer who selects a small group of officers, who then have input into the decision. Either way, personalities and preferences play a huge role.

 

[65-2x2]

That is why companies settle out of court even when they are not guilty of anything. Juries fell all warm and fuzzy about giving away a the money of big corporations; it is the old David and Goiath syndrome.

 

[Inkgardener]

A couple observations:

1) LE contracts, like military contracts, usually include armorer training for a specified number of people, plus parts support, etc. So that turns a $700 real world retail priced handgun that would probably have a contract price of $500-$550 each, into a $1000 gun.

2) Particularly in smaller departments (under around 100 officers) pistol selection is often decided by a single officer who happens to be into guns and is regarded as an "expert", or an officer who selects a small group of officers, who then have input into the decision. Either way, personalities and preferences play a huge role.

I agree. I will add that the armorer training and support would be for every manufacturer. What platform did the come from? I'm mostly looking at it from a financial perspective. Sig makes fine guns but did they need a more expensive handgun?

On your second observation I agree again. My question to that person is why are you trading in a Honda for a Lexus? The answer is probably because they don't pay for them. We do, and that person wanted a new gun. Would be a little different if they NEEDED them, but we have all seen police trade-ins.

 

[CRT2]

And we all know that Glock leg results from some type of user input.

A Glock user wants to carry one on one of those farm animal stupid slide clips with the trigger fully exposed in your waistband? How about re-holstering in a non readily removeable IWB holster, with a loose shirt, jacket or draw cord lock sharing the same real estate?

They are entirely free to knock themselves out, but no one will be shocked when they have a negligent discharge.

And again, a jury just found the Sig P320 to be capable of an un-commanded discharge, but did not award any compensatory or punitive damages because the plaintiff chose to carry it in a manner most prudent people would consider to be unsafe.

Thats the area Glock has been in for decades successfully defending Glock leg cases.

Sig? They are not going to be nearly so lucky when the general opinion is it needs to no help to fire all by itself, in cases where it is safely carried.

Opinions. The "uncommanded discharge" has never been replicated with any of the pistols. No "valid" proof. Now if I use screws and pull the trigger while shaking the slide it may fire. Even the FBI revised it initial testing after correctly preparing the pistol for testing rather than cutting the pistol apart.

 

[YeshuaIsa53]

My opinion is a recall with a fix and stamp. Expensive, but the safest thing to do. Sig can just call it a mandatory recall and let it go at that.

 

[WCCPHD]

This is a huge problem for Sig, but it's only half of the problem.

Recently, I watched a police chief discuss his department's decision to move on from the Sig, and how it is financially impacting his department. They paid $1000 for each of them.

Why would a police department pay $1000 for anything when they can get a Glock for less than $300. Is a Sig 3x better than a Glock? No, and the recent news headlines make the argument it's not even equal.

Why buy SUV's when they could ride bicycles?

As said above there are other factors involved to drive up the cost. Many contracts today include the firearm, weapon mounted light, red dot sight, extra magazines, armorer training, spare parts etc.

The $1000 per weapon cost is used by anti government, anti tax, anti law enforcement people to criticize what they don't like and push an agenda. Like the mainstream media today, facts, truth, logic take a back seat to their agenda.

 

[CRT2]

My opinion is a recall with a fix and stamp. Expensive, but the safest thing to do. Sig can just call it a mandatory recall and let it go at that.

Not sure what they need to fix during the recall.

Yes, I own P320s but I'm not defending Sig America or the P320, rather, I would like proof of what the "failure" is. One tester, I believe his name is Gray found 4 actions needed to occur to cause a discharge. That is 4 failures of internal safeties.

 

[YeshuaIsa53]

Not sure what they might change or add, either.