SIG P320 Discharges?
- Thread starter biku324
- Start date
- Status
AJ, see my post #180 for Sig's push back on the Florida lawmaker.
I've owned a number of both P250 and P320 pistols and tho I own neither anymore I consider the P250 system to be a superb type for self defense. And I've never heard of one going Bang without being told to...
I had an early sub compact. Probably no fault of the pistol but I got two holes in a leather chair , rip thru the matching sofa and a nice entrance hole in the wall. I used it as a down payment on an RV and got $500 out of it. I liked the pistol! I pocket a model 60, and sometimes the tiny Glock now
Sal1950
Member
No but it for sure will hurt. With the Sig being one of the most popular LEO and military weapons, what armorer in his right mind will be purchasing them for his unit for quite a while.
Personally I find the idea of Sig's (always cocked) condition 1 a bit wonky but that's just me. But I don't see how this gun can be rightly called a DAO system since pulling the trigger does not cock the gun, it's always cocked..
But I'll admit my bias up front, I've never met a striker fired gun I could love, all there trigger pulls suck.
I see lots of mash potatoes and gravy....
Where's the beef?
Where's the beef?
Not if your goal is to isolate whether the striker block safety is working as intended by removing trigger movement from the equation. I am very familiar with the inner workings of the P320 and I can tell you that Sig's explaination, while having a tiny bit of truth to it, overall is horsesh!t. The punch test on the sear does not move the trigger bar a sufficient amount to press the striker block safety out of the slot in the striker. Plus, in the YouTube video I attached, the guy clearly showed the striker block safety failiing to reset in one of the 2 P320s when pressed down with his finger. That should never happen, ever.
The P320's striker block safety is a bullsh!t design IMHO. it relies on a thin stamping and an angled, pivoting part with lots of frictional contact that must pivot from the compression of a torsion spring that fits around a post. It is too susceptible to being out of position, or one of the legs of the torsion spring slipping off the striker block or the striker housing. Or the loop in the spring could slip out to the edge of the post that contains it and inhibit movement.
Sig even tacitly admitted that it was a poor design by the simple fact that the P365 came after the P320 and it doesn't share the P320's stiker assembly or sear design. The P320 uses the proven striker block design pioneered by Glock and used by virtually every other striker fired pistol on the market. A coil spring trapped inside a bore cannot be out of position, and the simple spring pressing on a plunger is as mechanically simple and positive as mechanical design gets. In that design, the trigger bar simply pushes up on the plunger, which then clears a slot in the striker. Without pulling the trigger, the spring presses the plunger back into the slot in the striker, providing a mechanical block against movement. No "boomerang" shaped levers and 2 legged torsion spring that can slip off the striker block like in the P320 and much less frictional drag to slow down or prevent reset.
If the P320 was such a good design, then why didn't Sig copy its fire control system in the P365, and why are we not hearing about any cases of ADs in the P365? I think these are fair questions to ask.
- Joined
- May 12, 2011
- Messages
- 1,547
- Reaction score
- 865
The action of the SIG P320 (also M17, M18) has been updated with since 2024 with several safety improvements. A video and web page by SIG explains these changes in detail. Search for "update" not "upgrade." The status of your pistol can be checked against its serial number. The update must be installed by SIG, and is free.
The sear has been modified to remain under heavy spring tension until the trigger is pulled, even if the slide is removed. A second notch was added to the sear as a secondary stop. The firing pin has been lightened, and is positively blocked by the trigger bar. The trigger itself is lightened for added drop safety. The trigger takeup is noticeably longer with the upgrade, to actuate the added safety measures. The new action is similar to that of the SW M&P Mod 2 10mm, which I also own.
The optional external frame safety blocks the trigger only, and has a firm detent. It is standard on military style M17 and M18 pistols. The low bore axis and excellent grip makes the M18 (and M&P) easy to shoot and suprisingly accurate for a semi-automatic pistol.
The sear has been modified to remain under heavy spring tension until the trigger is pulled, even if the slide is removed. A second notch was added to the sear as a secondary stop. The firing pin has been lightened, and is positively blocked by the trigger bar. The trigger itself is lightened for added drop safety. The trigger takeup is noticeably longer with the upgrade, to actuate the added safety measures. The new action is similar to that of the SW M&P Mod 2 10mm, which I also own.
The optional external frame safety blocks the trigger only, and has a firm detent. It is standard on military style M17 and M18 pistols. The low bore axis and excellent grip makes the M18 (and M&P) easy to shoot and suprisingly accurate for a semi-automatic pistol.
OP
If it has needed 2 updates or upgrades, it wasn't ready for service. Trial and error is a poor substitute for proper design, execution, and testing. From just info on this thread, no one with a conscience should force troops (police or military) to carry this weapon, IMO.
Most of those changes occurred well before 2024, and pretty much all of the P320s in recent AD cases have all of those upgrades already. Sig has been quietly "upgrading" parts in the P320 almost continuously since introduction.
The Sig video in post 189 above was listed on YouTube three years ago, so 2022, so I think your "well before 2024" is accurate. But why do you think "pretty much all of the P320s in recent AD cases have all those upgrades already?" What is your basis for that belief?
Sal1950
Member
Maybe after this fiasco our American Military & LEOs will start buying arms from S&W, Colt, or Ruger.
All 3 make excellent weapons!
All 3 make excellent weapons!
LVSteve
Member
I can hear the reset Mafia screaming "NOOOOOO!!!" at their computers after reading your comment.
Revelation
Member
Perhaps, but that was then, and this is now..... We're living in a totally different world with a totally different mindset. Personally, I like SIG a lot, but as they have tremendously grown in the past 30+ years, so have their problems, which I believe many have been swept under the rug. Be it as it may, I only wish them well. I like my SIG's, but I never did like the 320, so I never bought one.
Agree. I think the arrogance of Cohen and how this problem has been dealt with is their biggest failure.
Air Force command pauses M18 pistol use after airman's death at Wyoming base
The U.S. Air Force Global Strike Command has paused the use of a pistol after a Security Forces airman died at a Wyoming base.
apnews.com
True, but the Glock 19, ugly as it is, never fails and never has those problems. I love sig da/sa pistols. I have a large handgun collection and will likely never have a 320 style action on the place. They fail with only a little wear and tear and the striker slips. Simple problem that can blow your knee cap off.
That will not hurt Sig and the other fine products that they sell, but the recent Air Force injury is going to cost them and cost them big. And it should. It is a faulty design and if Sig were responsible they would offer to modify every one of the free or charge, or they can wait, and some court will likely order that eventually, they are just like Ford and the Pinto, trying to say there are so few it does not matter, unless you are the crippled guy. Time will tell.
As far as Sig leading the edge on all firearms technology, I think that is a stretch, I think KelTec is far ahead of them, nothing there for me, I am just a technology buff and KT is way ahead of the pack.
No, you should not offer to buy it back as a matter of integrity. You might tell him that there are on going issues resulting in sudden untended firing. Then the choice is his.
I once fired 2 Glocks, in 45 GAP, both set for competition. About the most accurate handguns I have ever fired. One had a 12 ounce trigger the other a 16 ounce trigger, as sweat as a trigger can be. I also have a Uberti Single Action Army 45 Colt, it has a 12 ounce trigger. I only carry 5 rounds in it and only cock that gun when I intend to do so. Many people cannot go to bed at night with a gun like that in the house, lol.
Now think back, 40 years ago, we bought trigger shoes, from my old friend Melvin Tyler, (RIP) we put them on our deer rifles to make that 1.5 pound trigger feel even softer, that was state of the art, what the most professional riflemen did. Now, only some nut job would do that, right?
The Sig problem is totally different. Wear and tear and probably dirt accelerates the surprise firing. We notify our friends when we learn of the risk and if we own those guns we do not carry them around our friends. And the company has a duty to fix them or pull them out of the market. If not, the courts will fix that after enough people are injured.
My 2 cents. I will just not allow them in my house, that's all. All other Sigs I like just fine. Opinions vary. I may like you, but not your sister, same deal.
THIS IS THE MOST CURRENT AND RELATIVE ARTICLE OUT THERE, READ THIS ONE. That said, I do not like it when a politician gets involved in these issues. They can send out any notices they want, but they should not call for legislation on such matters, IMHO. They can destroy a company in a heartbeat, let the experts or the Courts decide the issue. Yes I can read there are over 100 such accidental firings, I just do not think this is a political issue. My 2 cents.
And I consider that a problem, they should not do it quietly, they should notify owners there is a risk, and fix it immediately. I understand the lawyer issues, I have been one over 3 decades as a second career. Am I that old> ? Yep, sure am.
OP
I had 2 second careers (higher education and overseas contracting) - police 20 year retirement is a good, good thing, and I am very grateful.
Because the models cited in the cases were made after those upgrades, and you can clearly see the lightened trigger designs on those which were added post- "voluntary upgrade." Also, I am very familiar with all of the rolling revisions Sig has made... revisions like changing the spring retention on the sear to help prevent spring crossing. I have intensely studied the P320 and have worked on them a great deal since the highly publicized drop test discharges were demonstrated by Omaha Outdoors in 2017.
Sal1950
Member
I have a 1911 Colt 45 dating from right around 1915, so it's 110 yo and runs totally reliable.
Another 100% reliable piece is my RIA 1911 in 9mm. Trigger drops at 3 3/4 lbs and breaks like the proverbial glass rod.
Then there's my Tanfoglio Witness Elite Match in 40 and 10mm. I won't brag on how sweet that one is to shoot.
A pox on tupperware striker fired guns.
Another 100% reliable piece is my RIA 1911 in 9mm. Trigger drops at 3 3/4 lbs and breaks like the proverbial glass rod.
Then there's my Tanfoglio Witness Elite Match in 40 and 10mm. I won't brag on how sweet that one is to shoot.
A pox on tupperware striker fired guns.
I find it strange that the gun went off with the safety engaged, or was it really engaged?
There have been cases when a striker fired gun with no manual safety was jammed into a holster and the trigger was partially pushed back and later in time then was pushed the rest of the way back when the holster was roughly handled or when the person wearing the holster shifted his body when sitting down putting additional pressure on the side of the holster which pushed the trigger back the rest of the way causing a discharge. This type of discharge happens frequently when "no" holster is used. This happened to Plaxico Burress when dining at a New York Restaurant but he was carrying a Glock not a Sig.
There is a reason that the U.S. Military and the Israeli Army all demanded their troops carry their pistols with the chamber empty even though the previous 1911 is a single action pistol and ditto for the Israeli FN High Power. It was proven that there were far less accidental discharges when carrying the gun with an empty chamber.
Sig sales have certainly been hurt in the civilian market but do to the vast Military bureaucracy I do not think the Military will give up on the Sig 320. Perhaps the empty chamber carry would be good for the U.S. Sig 320 as well, at least until they find out why the model 320 fired off all by itself which will also result in myself staying away from any Sig 320 that comes anywhere near me.
You know the old saying "Where there is smoke, there is fire" and the Sig 320 has been billowing smoke ever since its introduction.
There have been cases when a striker fired gun with no manual safety was jammed into a holster and the trigger was partially pushed back and later in time then was pushed the rest of the way back when the holster was roughly handled or when the person wearing the holster shifted his body when sitting down putting additional pressure on the side of the holster which pushed the trigger back the rest of the way causing a discharge. This type of discharge happens frequently when "no" holster is used. This happened to Plaxico Burress when dining at a New York Restaurant but he was carrying a Glock not a Sig.
There is a reason that the U.S. Military and the Israeli Army all demanded their troops carry their pistols with the chamber empty even though the previous 1911 is a single action pistol and ditto for the Israeli FN High Power. It was proven that there were far less accidental discharges when carrying the gun with an empty chamber.
Sig sales have certainly been hurt in the civilian market but do to the vast Military bureaucracy I do not think the Military will give up on the Sig 320. Perhaps the empty chamber carry would be good for the U.S. Sig 320 as well, at least until they find out why the model 320 fired off all by itself which will also result in myself staying away from any Sig 320 that comes anywhere near me.
You know the old saying "Where there is smoke, there is fire" and the Sig 320 has been billowing smoke ever since its introduction.
"As far as Sig leading the edge on all firearms technology, I think that is a stretch, I think KelTec is far ahead of them, nothing there for me, I am just a technology buff and KT is way ahead of the pack."
Which product(s) today does KelTec sell that is more technologically advanced that Sig Sauer?
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2005
- Messages
- 9,319
- Reaction score
- 11,578
These threads continue regularly but never change.
Glenn R. McMannly
Member
Still seeing M18s at the gate on the base.
If I were forced to carry that ugly little brown pistol, it would sure be Israeli carry.
SIG is a shameful company. While I'm not a fan of the Beretta M9, I'd take one over that plastic piece of garbage.
If I were forced to carry that ugly little brown pistol, it would sure be Israeli carry.
SIG is a shameful company. While I'm not a fan of the Beretta M9, I'd take one over that plastic piece of garbage.
Outpost75
Member
Maybe something in the water? VW, HK, SIG all suffer from the same corporate greed and dishonesty.
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2021
- Messages
- 5,277
- Reaction score
- 9,194
Amen brother. Solution is to go back to the best semi auto pistol ever invented, 1911 types, Very simple solution.I have a 1911 Colt 45 dating from right around 1915, so it's 110 yo and runs totally reliable.
Another 100% reliable piece is my RIA 1911 in 9mm. Trigger drops at 3 3/4 lbs and breaks like the proverbial glass rod.
Then there's my Tanfoglio Witness Elite Match in 40 and 10mm. I won't brag on how sweet that one is to shoot.
A pox on tupperware striker fired guns.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2002
- Messages
- 745
- Reaction score
- 1,299
I've owned a G-17, a G-19, a G-43, a G-48 and a G-45...and as much as I tried to like Glocks, I ended up getting rid of all of them. So, clearly I am not a Glock lover, but I thought that the most popular handgun in the world was the Glock 17; not the Sig Sauer P365. Has that changed...?
Give me a Smith & Wesson 3rd Generation semiauto, or give me death!
Give me a Smith & Wesson 3rd Generation semiauto, or give me death!
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
